SPEAKER_00: 0:04

Are you ready to break free from hesitation, self-doubt, and isolation? Do you want to lead with confidence, build powerful connections, and live boldly? I'm Corey Baugh, and I'm here to share the most impactful strategies and mindsets that I've learned through coaching, leadership, and real-world experience. Together we'll forge unshakable confidence, faster social dynamics, and create a life rooted in purpose, brotherhood, and bold action. Inside, you'll get the tools and insights to become the strongest, most connected version of yourself. Let's dive in. Hey everyone, and welcome to the Evolve Men podcast. Today I have got Jeff Loving with me. So Jeff, welcome.

SPEAKER_02: 0:43

Thank you so much for having me. I I really appreciate the time and for inviting me on. I mean, I I saw you were looking for guests, and I was like, this is exactly the audience that I feel like I I've been looking to connect with, with our story and with the book that I wrote.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01

So Yeah, well, with that, you know, I mean, I'd I'd like to say that listening to your story, right, and and reading about it really touched my heart time and time again as I was going through it as a father and a man. And I think that there is an aspect today that I'd really like to get into around the story from a man's perspective that probably doesn't get told or expressed, or people don't even know that uh that it's even a thing. So I'm really excited to to hear about it. So with that, like if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit of your your story, and you mentioned the book, but let's let's just dig right into it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:38

Yeah. So to give a little bit of background, my wife and I have been married for we just celebrated five years back in August. We actually originally we were we we currently are living in North Carolina, but we were living in Nebraska, and back in 2021, we got pregnant with our first child. We found out that we're having a little boy, and so we we were very excited. Like we had always wanted to be parents. I mean, I I just personally remember just being like overly excited. And when she told me that we were having a kid, I was like, when can I share the news? Like, I'm like jomping at the bit. Like I was that, I was that parent. I was like, just tell me when, and I'm gonna blast it across social media that we're having a child. And I was so excited. So fast forward that we found that out in August, so fast forward to November. It was the like the weekend before Thanksgiving. And my wife was starting to feel discomfort. We hadn't really had very many issues up to that point. Like, so this is our first pregnancy, we didn't really know what to expect. And that Monday she ended up having some light bleeding, and we were like, what does this mean? Like, it is possible to have some light bleeding at this point in pregnancy. She was about 19 weeks at that point. Actually, she was 19 weeks at the point, I should say. And so we got an appointment with her with her doctor, got in, and I remember sitting in that that room with them. They were doing an ultrasound. Everything looked great with with him. We found out it was a little boy. I mean, he was doing great, and I will never forget just sitting there and watching the tech's face go from like everything's great, to she turned the screen away and she was like looking at it, and then she's like, I will be right back. And I knew in that moment that something was wrong. I don't think my wife understood like the situation had shifted. Like she knew something was off, but I don't think it really sunk into for her yet because she was just trying to like be like, What is going on? Like, clearly something's happening. I don't know what's happening. And so the doctor comes in and she ends up telling us that my wife's cervix had already started dilating and that we needed to go to the emergency room like immediately because we were going to be delivering our son. And so we go to the hospital, and they tried their best to save him, and they basically gave us the impossible choice of you can either try and keep him in, running the risk of infection and potentially giving my wife sepsis and putting her life in danger, or deliver him and know that he's not going to survive. And it's like what what do I do with that information? Like, how am I supposed to make that impossible decision between keeping our son potentially alive and potentially passing away and my wife passing away, or just delivering our son outright and just knowing that he's not going to survive? So we ended up just delivering him, and it was honestly like the hardest thing that we've ever experienced. I just remember my I was like having an out-of-body experience, basically. I was so detached from reality, and just holding him, he was only about nine out 8.9 ounces, I believe it was. So he's a very, very small, translucent skin. You could see his heartbeat through his chest, and he held on for about 43 minutes and then passed away in my hands. And I remember holding them and just his heartbeat, heartbeat just fading out. And the very next day was unfortunately Thanksgiving. Um, so luckily, my family lived only about three hours away from us at that time. So they we originally were gonna go up to their house to spend Thanksgiving with my parents and my sister and her family, and they ended up coming down to us. And that Thanksgiving, we were discharged on Thanksgiving Day, and it was just like this somber, like emotional meal where no expectations were put forth, and they were like, you don't have to talk about it, we can talk about it, we just want to be here for you. And I just remember feeling like I don't know what we just experienced. We just had to like leave the hospital without our son, we just lost our son, and now we're trying to have this meal of giving thanks for the things that we have, and it's like I'm just thankful that we had our my family there, and and then about a month later, her family came out from Maryland for Christmas, and we just kind of had a similar situation. But after that first loss, the months that subsed or like followed, it was really, really difficult. My birthday is actually right after Thanksgiving, so we actually ended up having his funeral and and service and everything the day before my birthday, and that was so hard. But luckily, people were in town, came together, we celebrated my birthday, celebrated his life as well. And but I just remember being with my wife in our apartment, one of us was uncontrollably sobbing, grieving, while the other one was just placid, no emotion, just going through the motions. But then on the flip of a switch, it would be the opposite, flip the other way, yeah, exactly. Flip the other way, and we were just trying to be there for each other, and it was so difficult. And like people would come and spend time with us, and we really, really, really appreciated that. People would bring us meals, but just didn't feel like we could ever fill that hole that was missing, and it was just honestly the hardest part in our marriage, honestly. And I remember somebody telling us very early on they were like, This is either going to break your marriage, and you're just gonna divorce, and no hard feelings, you'll just go your separate ways, and just it's because it just got too hard, or you're gonna come out on the other side of this and it's going to refine your marriage, and it is gonna make your marriage even stronger that you will be able to walk through anything together, and so we we were grieving. I didn't really have any resources to go to. Thankfully, she did. Um, we both did therapy, and that helped me a little bit, but honestly, like I just was like, I just need something tangible that somebody understands my ver my viewpoint, my my grief. Because a lot of times people were telling me, you need to show up for your wife, you need to do this, you need to take care of the house, you need to take care of the dog, you need to take care of her. And it selfishly in back of my mind is like, those things are all true, but what about me? Like, what about my grief? Like, when do I get to grieve when I'm taking care of like balancing all these plates at the same time? It's like, when do I get the chance to grieve? But I never felt like I had the permission to, because that was the expectation as a man and as the husband was to I had to show up every single day. And if I was to grieve or if I was to think about him, do it when everything is done and everybody's asleep, and then you can go have your time. And I just I remember just feeling so defeated in that and just thinking like this is the way that I'm supposed to live. Like, I don't have a voice, I should I shouldn't be grieving. I I feel I felt guilty almost for grieving. And so after a few months, we we were able to start coming back from the brink of like the possibility of our marriage dissolving after only being married for about a year. It happened within the first year of our marriage, which is just wild to think about. But it was just like bam, right there. So, one of the biggest things for us is like the mountains are really healing for us, and just being in nature and stuff, it's just like very rejuvenating and just healing, and we just love going to the mountains and just having a weekend away, just like deconnecting and just really being grounded. And we wanted to be closer to the mountains, and we were like, Well, we're in a season where we don't really have anything going on here in Nebraska. We love it here, we love the people. She actually used to work at a church out there that we were really connected with, and we're just like, we should we should just move. Why not? We have nothing holding us back. We wanted to buy a house anyway, so we just bought a house out here in North Carolina and made the move cross-country on on a whim. And I remember moving here, and the first weekend that we came here on our exploratory trip, or actually on on the weekend that we were closing on our house, happened to be Mother's Day, and it was the first Mother's Day after losing our son Davian. And I just remember sticking. We went to church that Sunday, and we were just like, What are we thinking? Why did we come to church on Mother's Day? We are in like hot messes right now, nobody here knows us, and we're just like sobbing.

SPEAKER_00: 11:49

Yeah, they're like, holy shit, who are these people?

SPEAKER_02: 11:52

First time here, and like we're just like, what were we thinking? And then so ended up buying the house, signed on it, and flew back to Nebraska. And then a couple months went by. It was after Father's Day, we were back in a service. We actually went back to that same church. Nobody remembered us, thankfully. They didn't remember the the crying couple. So but we I remember like we were sitting there listening to the sermon, and he was talking about coming out of the desert of life and back into like the the promised land or like the the rejuvenation of your life to find joy again. And I just remember sitting with her and just like saying, like, we we have been grieving this loss, rightfully so. And I just feel like we are just shells of our former selves, and so we just chose to work together, open communication. If one of us wanted to have a moment, we were there, no judgment, and that that year from 2022 to 2023 was so healing for us. There was no expectations. We in regards to like wanting to get pregnant again, there was no expectations on like this is your role in the house, this is my role. Like, we just were a team and we just worked together, and I feel like that that year really helped rebuild our marriage. And so the following summer of August of 2023, find out we get pregnant again, and the the timelines for for our second second baby to Davian were about a week apart. So Davian's due date was like, I can't remember off the top of my head, but basically our second son was due eight days after Davian's original due date. And so we found out we're having a boy again, and we named him Jaden. We knew we we I remember sitting in the Chick-fil-A parking or in the drive-thru, and we were just like, ooh, Jaden, we like that name, Jaden Noah. And so, and we were just like excited again. We were getting the buzz of like, oh, we're gonna have a son, it's gonna be our redemption story. But honestly, like going into that pregnancy, there was a lot of anxiety because it was exactly almost like week for week with Davian's story, and and so we're in North Carolina at this point, so we found a doctor, found a specialist. Since she had a loss, she was put as high risk. So we automatically went to the high-risk doctor. At the time, she was only 29 and she was a high-risk patient, which is not very common at all. And when we were in Nebraska, our doctor told us if you were to get pregnant again, I highly recommend you getting a surgery called a surclage. And surclage is basically a stitch that they sew your cervix shut and just gives the woman a lot better chance of going full term. It has like a 95% success rate, and it's non-invasive. It's like they do anesthesia for like your hips down, and then they sew the cervix shut, and then you're able to leave later that day. So it's not, it's like it's a surgery technically, but it's preventative sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00: 15:32

Like we already know that this is a thing. Let's let's just weld that shut.

SPEAKER_02: 15:35

Exactly, exactly. So they said get that at week 12. And we're like, cool, we will get that at week 12. So we go in the specialist's office, and he he was like, I've been doing this for like 30 years, I've done so many surquages, like I'm very well versed in this procedure. And he's like, But looking at your medical history, I'm not convinced that you need this. And we were like, Okay, like I I mean, you are this you are the doctor, you are the specialist, you would know better than we would. And so he's like, We will watch it starting at week 16, and we'll just watch it as it as we move on. If there needs to be an emergency, we can easily put a surclog in. We're like, okay, like I remember being hesitant about that decision, but we just trusted him because he's the doctor, he should never, and so fast forward to week 16. We go in, her cervix length was at like 4.2, which is a good length. It's a it's a natural length. We go back in two weeks later at week 18, and her cervix had shortened from 4.2 to 2.9 centimeters, and we were like, Can we get the circle, please?

SPEAKER_00: 16:53

Like yesterday's.

SPEAKER_02: 16:55

Yeah, exactly. Like, this is this is alarming for us. And he was like, Well, I don't like to do preemptive surgeries or procedures once it gets under 2.5 centimeters, then I will put one in. And I I kick myself for not pushing harder to get that. So that week was Thanksgiving. So we go up to Maryland, spend Thanksgiving with her family, come back. Our next appointment is that next Wednesday, go in, and her cervix has shortened from 2.9 centimeters to 2.7 centimeters. And again, he was just like, I'm not convinced. Once it gets to 2.5, then we can do the procedure. And he, I remember him telling us, if you'd like a second opinion, you can get one. But he never referred us to somebody to get a second opinion because we were still new. We were like, we don't know who to talk to, we just trust you. And so that was on Wednesday, and then that Sunday was my birthday. And I remember we were like, she asked me, What do you want for your birthday? And I was like, just a chill night where we can just relax and just be together and just be thankful for what we have. So we just hang hung out that night, and then about 11 p.m., she calls me into the restroom and she's like, Can you please look? I'm too scared to look. And so I look, and it was a site that I was very familiar with. Her amniotic sac was starting to bulge, and I knew in that moment that it was just gonna be a repeat of what we had just lived through two years prior. And so we got in the car, it was like midnight, we rushed to the hospital, and they tried to prevent it by putting her bed, like her head down and her legs elevated to try and keep him in. The next morning they did an ultrasound and basically told us like it's a matter of when he's gonna be delivered, he's probably not gonna make it. And we were devastated, obviously. And to rub salt in the wound, so to say, I went downstairs to get some lunch, and while I was gone, I was gone for 10 minutes maybe, the the doctor, the specialist, apparently walked into our room unannounced, started talking to my wife, and just was like, so this is the situation, you're gonna have to deliver your son. Unfortunately, he's probably not gonna make it because he's under 24 weeks, which is about the week that they're usually viable for NICU stays. But we can try. What I would recommend moving forward is that you get an an abdominal stitch, which is basically a circlage, but it's like they would have to cut her open and stitch her cervix above the cervix versus going in through the vagina, and then she would have have a cesarean birth the rest of her pregnancies. And then he just like drew it out and then just leaves. And all within 10 minutes. And I come back and she's uncontrollably. Yeah, she's crying. She's like, I don't know what just happened. She was like, he just came in. I'm petrified. I didn't know what to say. The nurse was like, I don't know what to do here. And so immediately we were like, we are transferring to the other hospital in town. And we ended up going to that hospital. And our experience went from this is the worst experience times two to we had the best care ever with any hospital staff that I've ever experienced at that other hospital. They knew our diagnosis, they knew our story, and the nurses showed up. They were so compassionate, empathetic, insert whatever word. And they actually had a bereavement coordinator that came in, and her name ended up being Angel, which is wonderful. It's a little pleasantly ironic. Exactly. Exactly. And she she I don't know if she'll ever hear this podcast, but she is honestly so good at her job. And she showed up.

unknown: 21:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 21:20

She showed up for us in ways that I can never even put into words. And she was just so intentional. She was like such she was just had amazing bedside manner. And she was also hilarious. So she could take a terrible situation and just make us laugh through the tears. And one thing that we were really, really, really hoping for, and we were praying hard for was for Cassie's family to make it down in time, for my family to make it down in time, and for her best friend to make it down so that she could be there for the birth. So my parents drove 18 hours nonstop. Her parents drove about six and a half hours nonstop. And then her best friend also drove about six hours nonstop. And all three of the groups were able to make it to the hospital before we delivered our son. And that was just such a blessing. And one of the funny things that I remember about that situation, as dark and as heavy as it was, my angel was she was showing us clothing that we could put him in after we delivered him to like do photos and stuff. And I remember my parents were in the room with us, and they didn't know his name at the time. So we I I just kind of forgot to tell my parents Jaden's name. There's a lot going on. Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 22:49

Like everything going on times two.

SPEAKER_02: 22:51

Yeah, exactly. But Angel knew his name.

SPEAKER_00: 22:53

Name's not important.

SPEAKER_02: 22:54

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But Angel knew his name. And so she was going through and she was like, Yeah, when Jaden's born, you can put him in this. In my mom's face, she was just like, Were we supposed to know his name? And and I was, and I was like, uh, and then Angel with like miss without missing a beat, she was like, I mean Jacletus, and we were like, Jacletus.

SPEAKER_00: 23:20

Like, all right, don't even ruin it, okay? The moment's already come and gone.

SPEAKER_02: 23:24

Exactly, exactly. And oh my gosh. I just remember like in that moment, it was such a heavy cloud of like grief and this inevitability. But then she just broke that with nicknaming him Jacletus. It's now, it's still to this day a running joke of like whenever we see her, we're just like, we're thinking of you. Jacletus sends his love to you. It's just like that special moment that we were able to have with her, and we actually have a little bear that has a heartbeat in it, and it was his last heartbeat. And um, so we nicknamed him Jacletus in his honor and everything, and so it's just really sweet to have those like memorials and stuff. But basically, what happened was my wife ended up delivering Jaden, and he lived for about 20-ish minutes, I think it was. And he was a little bit bigger than Davian, and like I said, the hospital staff there was just so intentional. And we were just able to stay with him. We had like one of those cooler bassinets, so we could keep him in the room with us, and and that was that was really, really special to be able to just pick him up when we wanted to, hold him, have him sleeping in the room with us, and looking back on it, like leaving the hospital for for men that have gone through this or or parents that have gone through this, the hardest part is for me at least. Obviously, delivering and watching your your child pass away is incredibly hard. But it's the aftermath that I feel is the hardest, at least it was for me. Leaving the hospital with knowing that we came there with a child still alive and leaving the hospital with empty arms. And again, yeah, for a second time from a preventable thing was extremely difficult. And I say preventable because, as we talked about before we started recording, my wife recently had our double rainbow baby, and we had a little baby girl back in May, and we got the surclage surgery at week 12.

SPEAKER_00: 25:49

I'm sure.

SPEAKER_02: 25:52

And and she she came a little early, she was a NICU child or NICU baby, but she's thriving. And I'm just like, if we would have just gotten a surclage, things could have potentially been different. I can't say definitively they would have been, but it just it really hurts my heart to know that we were that close to having a son and having to lose him in the same way. But and in the same way, in the same breath, I can say with their losses and the timing of that, we were blessed with our baby, baby girl. And that is so special as well. And I know that's not everybody's story, and I never want to give that false hope to people to say, like, oh, if you just keep trying, you're you're you'll eventually get a child. Like, that's not everybody's situation. Yeah, it's not, it's really not, and I know that, and that also breaks my heart to know that it's not everybody's situation. And so the last thing I'll say about our story, just kind of recap or like rounding it out. Something very important to me was I I mentioned before that I I just felt like I had no resources. I I felt like unseen, like I was the manager in the background, just like managing everything around the household with our first pregnancy loss, and then our second one. Again, it was a similar vibe of like I felt like I was juggling a bunch of things, showing up for my wife. But ultimately, we both kind of felt like semblance of peace with our second loss. Not because we were like, oh, we're we don't have a son, we're okay with that. It was more like we did everything that we knew prior to try and save him, and we were not met with that on the medical side of things, unfortunately. And we just had a piece of like knowing that we did everything to try and save our son, but we just ended up losing him, unfortunately. And a week after we lost him, we had like a follow-up with our doctor, and I remember sitting in her office, checked out. I was just like, it was it was for it was for Cassie, it was for my wife, it was her follow-up. So I was just sitting there supportive, and we had a friend in there with us, and I remember at the end of the meeting, she turns from Cassie and fully turns her chair to me, and she says, I've talked to Cassie. How are you doing? Like, do you make me like, do you need anything from me? And I was like, I was taken aback at first because I was like, what you're you're acknowledging me? Like, I didn't even know I could. Yeah, and I was just like, What? And she's like, Do you need anything from me? How are you doing? And honestly, to this day, like I was so thankful for her asking that question. I I don't remember my answer. It could have been like, Yeah, I have this laundry list of things, but just to be seen by a medical professional in the midst of that was so impactful to me that it made me realize, like, oh my gosh, if I'm going through this right now, if I'm feeling this, the first time being seen by a medical professional outside of our nurses, like how many other fathers of loss are going through this? How many other fathers of loss feel like they are just unseen in the background and just have no direction, no will to live anymore, just feel like empty vessels, just walking around with nothing. And I was like, oh my gosh, is that is that what's supposed to come out of these two losses? Is like for me to find that and to be able to show up for those those fathers of loss, and so I knew after Davian specifically, I knew I wanted to write something, but I didn't know how. I love writing, I've always been a writer. And so after sitting with it, after Jaden, I I realized what I wanted to write about, and I wanted to put a resource out there for rather fathers of loss. And so I wrote a book. It's called Holding On to the Light. There's a glare. Sorry. It's available on Amazon. It's a short book because I know our tar I know my target audience audience, and our attention span is very short as a man, so I get it. It's only like 130 pages long. But basically, what I did was I took stories from other fathers that I knew personally. And so you have a story of unexplained infertility or unexplained infertility, and the loss of never being a biological dad, and they ended up adopting, and they have a wonderful family. But he he was he struggled with that. He was like, I will never be a biological dad, and that is so gut-wrenchingly hard to walk through. So that's the that's one of the losses. The second loss is some family members of ours that walked through a loss about the same time that we did with Davian, and ended up going the IVF route, and just him struggling with is IVF even like ethical? Is it going against my religion? Is it is it of man or is it of God? And like I I never thought of it like that, honestly. I had never even thought of it.

SPEAKER_00: 31:58

Well, I can imagine until you you really are in that position and you think about it, then those questions don't come up, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then you start, you know, like, well, this might be my only opportunity.

SPEAKER_02: 32:09

And exactly. Yep. And so, like I said, that was enlightening to me. And then the third one was some good friends of ours that had a little boy, and I think he was three at the time when they got pregnant again, and they got pregnant with their second son when we were pregnant with Jaden, and they were diagnosed with trisamine 18, which, if if people are listening to this and they don't know what trisamine 18 is, it's basically a dirt uh a birth defect that is a matter of when your child's gonna pass away versus if they're gonna pass away. They could be born, and but it it's basically like it's a lethal diagnosis.

SPEAKER_00: 32:58

The clock is ticking.

SPEAKER_02: 32:59

Yeah, exactly. And so they got that diagnosis when she was like, I believe 14 weeks along. I can't remember exactly off the top of my head, but just knowing that it was a matter of when they were gonna lose their son versus if they were going to lose him, and him like the dad just wrestling with that idea of like my wife is pregnant, and we are just holding on every single day until we lose our son, and just the weight that comes with that, while also having to show up as being a an earthside father as well to your already living son, like, oh my gosh, it was just gut-wrenching to read these stories of these people that we knew personally, and then putting it into a book was so therapeutic, but also just so oh my gosh, my heart was breaking every time I sat down to write. Because basically, what the book is it's it's a fictional story with the main character being a personification of my trauma and my journey. Me, and it's kind of a friend of mine actually just did a review on the book, and she likened it to a Christmas story or Christmas Carol type story. So it's like a person visits this one, my main character, and I'm like, actually, that's that's a really good description of it. I never thought of it as a Christmas carol. And and he goes on this journey of finding healing through talking to these other three men that have gone through loss. And the only fictional part about it is like it takes place in his in his mind, basically. But their stories I never altered, they're real as real can get. And at the very end of the book, I share our story like more in depth and like actually write it out. And then at the very, very end of the book, I put an email address that's directly to me for fathers of loss or families of loss that just want to share their story, that just want to connect with me, like as a resource. Because, like I said before, I think I had one book given to me, and there are not a lot out there for men. Yeah, and unfortunately. And so I just was like, I want to write something that's gonna be applicable, that's gonna be potentially a way that somebody's gonna be like, that's how I've been feeling, and be able to put something to words, and that's been a huge growth and step of faith for myself, because I struggled a long time with putting my emotions and into paper, and in my relationship with like being a Christian, it really shook my faith, and just trying to refine my footing with that, and it it it was a lot of growth in the last four years going through these two losses and now writing this book and and trying to be an advocate for other fathers of loss, honestly.

SPEAKER_00: 36:12

So well, first and foremost, man, I I want to just acknowledge and appreciate you for sharing all of that with me. I mean that you know, not only these are the sort of things that that men in particular never talk about, right? I think we've touched on a lot through your conversation, our conversation of just how these things happen, right? But they're suppressed, right? That they're I I as you were talking, I continued to like get this picture in my head of like, you know, a couple standing together and something happening and you know, friends or family rushing to console them and they run right past the man to the wife, and they're like, oh my God, how are you? Kind of to your your point about being in the room when the doctor asks you, like, how you know, how are you doing, how are you doing? Is there anything that they can do for you? And I think that that is such a just something that's often overlooked, right? And and so I just want to appreciate you for that, for being willing to to share that story and to kind of like break the silence, because there is a real reality that happens with men where we are expected to be that like stoic statue. And and and and that's the thing, you know, when I think about my upbringing, men in general, right? That there is a there is a like there is a time and a place for that sort of thing. But I think at times it gets to be a black and white. You're either this or you're that. You're either the statue with no emotions that allows you to go into war, to go into these situations, but it's not like it's not easy to turn that off or to unlearn that and to unplug that. And to say that that's challenging, right? I I think because it comes out in so many other ways. Absolutely. The other thing, man, is that like I I hope that you know that there is you did it. Sounds like you did everything that you could have possibly done given your experience and your knowledge and who you are. These are things that were I mean, from my perspective, like it's a you you did everything that you could as a husband, as a father, as a human, like you made the right decisions in the moment. So I I mean I could sense along the way that there's still maybe times that you struggle with the fact of like the decisions that you made, right? And how things could have been differently. But at the end of the day, man, like you were working with the best information that you had at the time.

SPEAKER_01: 39:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 39:12

And but I know for myself as a man that that's that's something, right? As being that stoic provider and that support that there's I I can imagine that there's a sense of a certain responsibility, right? Like that was my time to have done this. And when somebody needed me, I didn't make the right choice, which is you know, it's fallacy. Like I right choice. I, you know, I mean, we're not gonna necessarily know until later, like right choice, but it can haunt us for fucking ever, right? And it's easy for our mind to go to this place of like if I had only done this, life wouldn't have been different. Yep. It would have been different, right? But to that same perspective, like it's unfortunate, not optimal, right? But it has also created this beautiful experience with your current child and the work that you're doing to to share this. Right. And that sometimes I think that the experience of these things happening is what makes I don't know if I want to say like everything worth living, but it's it's a culmin of these sort culmination of these sort of things.

SPEAKER_02: 40:42

So yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I honestly like you saying that, it makes me think of like how like I said before, had we not experienced what we did, this book wouldn't even be like it wouldn't even be possible. It wouldn't be there for somebody else. And I say that because some of the testimonials I've gotten from the book, and this isn't like saying like patting myself on the back, like this is just honest, real people that have reached out and been like, this is so impactful to me. Like, I'm so thankful for this resource. And that's all I care about, honestly, is this like I don't even care about sales, I don't care about how many books I sell. It's more of like if I can help one person find value in their story and know that they're going to be okay eventually, it will take time and and healing. That's enough for me. And the one the the one story that always pops out in my head is that friend that was with us when we were in the hospital with Jaden, she has a bigger following on Instagram than I ever will. Um, she's basically a low-key influencer. So it's so she put she did a review on the book because she was like, I need to share this because I was there, obviously.

SPEAKER_00: 41:58

And she's like, and this is so impactful for me reading back through what you guys lived through and watching this from yeah, from your hearing it from your perspective, yeah, and then hers like exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 42:13

And so she did like a reel, and she in the reel, she basically said, like, if you have walked through this, I highly recommend reading this book. Even if you never walk through this, but you know somebody that would benefit from it, consider sending it to them as a gift. You can either put your name on it, you can be anonymous. So about a month after that reel happened, I get a random DM on Instagram from this lady that I've never met before. And she was just like, Hey, I got your book in the mail. I have no idea who sent it to me, but my husband and I read it, and she was like, I read it in one sitting, and he read it in like a day. And I just wanted to thank you because we and this was back in April, I believe it was. So they had she told me that they had lost their son that previous December, so December of 2024. So it was very fresh for them. And she said, This is the first book that my husband has read in a decade, and this is also the first time that my husband has been willing to talk about our loss, and it was because of your book because he didn't know how to put his words into how to form them, and reading that book and hearing your story is exactly what we went through, and he was like, now I understand that somebody else knows what we went through, and I was able to talk talk to he was able to talk to his wife openly about their loss because I was able to put that before him, so he was able to like process his his own emotions. And she was like, honestly, it has been so life-giving because it's been so difficult to have open conversations before this. And that like when I got the message, I was like bawling my eyes out, and I was like, if I never sell another book, you changed a life, man. Yeah, if I never sell another book, I'm I'm good. I'm done. Mission accomplished exactly, and so yeah, that that story always sticks with me, and I always I'm so thankful for that family, and yeah, so it's just stories like that that I I'll I'll get randomly and just saying, like, your book was exactly what we needed, and it's just been honestly just such a encouragement to me to know that people are being positively impacted because there is a resource for men out there. And that's when I when I saw your your your podcast, I was like, this is this is the podcast that I've been looking for because I know how important it is for men to be seen and to grow and to be valued and to just ask them, like, how are you doing, and not have a stigma of showing their emotions and showing their grief or whatever they're walking through, and just to be able to wear it proudly and say, this is where I'm at, and this is where I'm honestly struggling at. And just to be okay with that is something that is slowly but surely becoming my life mission.

SPEAKER_00: 45:55

So I feel it, man. I and and with that, you know, I want to say that part of my mission is doing kind of just that thing, right? And that's from my own experiences and and I don't want to call them traumas necessarily, but really experiencing and acknowledging that there's a real lack of community and connection, especially in the arena of of men. Right. And so yeah, I've been, I'm working to start a brotherhood, a community, a circle where men are coming together and starting to experience that sort of thing and have the arena to be able to share these sort of things, right? Like, hey man, I'm not doing okay. Right. Like I'm trying to be that stoic, safe, strong provider for my my wife, my partner, but it's affecting me. You know. And so so with that, I mean, I'd like to kind of get into what that experience was like for you. I mean, I I love how, you know, there's so many things, so many questions that I have about the entire experience. And maybe we'll have to do some some follow-up episodes. But yeah, I I'd like to explore a little bit of like what that journey has been like for you, you know, finding community and support as a man and and how that has been supportive for you.

SPEAKER_02: 47:26

Yeah. So the biggest one that actually comes to mind, I actually was introduced to Page on Instagram, and it's a nonprofit organization based out of Maine called Sad Dads Club, and it's primarily for fathers of loss. And it was it started off with like, I believe it was six guys, or no, sorry, three guys that all knew each other, who all experienced loss in their own way, and they were like, I wonder if there's other guys out there that are like struggling with this. And so they started a nonprofit and they created a a Discord server, and I was able to join that, and there's like over 350 members in there right now, and it's just open dialogue, like sharing what we're going through, sharing our wins, sharing our hardships, sharing our memories and our remembrances, or whatever we find to be life-giving to that area, and no judgment, because we're all unfortunately part of the same club, and we all understand, and that's something that I've noticed is like, unless you've gone through a loss of whatever kind of loss it is, somebody can never fully understand your heart and your perspective unless you've gone through it yourself. So, like, I can never say, like, I know exactly what you're going through with your cancer diagnosis. I've never had cancer, I've never really known somebody that I don't know. I can empathize and I can come alongside them, but I can never know the gravity that comes from that. As a lost parent times two, I can show up for those guys when I'm I'm needed. NICU parents, I can also show up for NICU parents because I we just went through that. We understand the gravity that comes with seeing your child hooked up to a bunch of wires and trying to hold them and just being like uncomfortable. And I found some amazing community members through that too. And honestly, like there are so many organizations out there that are waiting to be like just so like they're they're they just need the exposure because they are such great organizations that just don't have the quite they're just like right on the cusp of like really going above and beyond to become like internationally known or like a staple of like if you were a lost father, sad dad's club. Like that is you need to get in touch with Rob. And I actually got a chance to talk with Rob and had like an interview with him and hear his heart behind their their mission, and I was just like, I want to get I wanna I wanna hitch my cart to them because that club or that organization, that is my mission right now. There's another organization down in Texas that was the NICU dad, and I was like, that is a club that I want to be a part of because I'm living that and I want to show up for the other NICU fathers, and so like I said before, you can Google like pregnancy loss or NICU like awareness or NICU organizations, and you'll find thousands of ones for women. Oh yeah, but you will find maybe ten maybe for guys or for fathers, and nothing against showing up for women because honestly, like those organizations are needed a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00: 51:32

They are absolutely needed, um and right, and yeah, exactly, so do men, right? And that's the thing, it's one of those not like but or this or that. No, we both need it.

SPEAKER_02: 51:46

Exactly, it's okay, and that's something that I I've actually had conversations with a few of the members of these organizations primarily focused on mothers of loss. I actually had like a couple conversations that have come from podcast interviews, actually, and I got connected with these organizations, and all of them have said like initially our heart was behind it because we wanted to show up for moms of loss, because they were mothers of loss as well. And every single organization that I've talked to has been like the thing that is lacking right now is a space for men in our organization because we don't know how to connect with men, because we don't have somebody coming on board and willing to help us with that area, and so that is a huge need. If there is somebody out there that is looking to, and that is like their they feel is their calling, there are so many organizations that are looking for male counterpoint or counterpart to show up for fathers of loss as well, and that's something that I I recently have learned about. I was just like, oh my gosh, I didn't even think about that. And I just feel like there we're just like right on the cusp of really breaking out into that and just having this huge influx of support for both men and women, and it's just it's right there, it really is. And honestly, like if you would have asked me back in 2021 after our first loss, like, do you feel like there's a lot of stuff out there? Honestly, no, but in the last year, there's been so many more conversations, more people are willing to talk about loss, more people are willing to talk about like pregnancy and infancy loss awareness. Like, I just feel like it's becoming a more open conversation, and people aren't putting a stigma to it. We're actually recording this in October, and this month is pregnancy and infancy loss awareness month. Um, and so like it's just kind of fitting that's like a lot more people are bringing light to it. Not to be ironic or like with my book tie in and everything, but like, but yeah, like a lot of people are really, really trying to step it up and really bring awareness to that this is a this is a global situation that affects one in four women will go through a pregnancy loss, which is just mind-blowing to think about. And whenever I hear that stat, it's like one in four women will experience a loss, but that also means that one in four men, whether the man is present with that with that woman or not, because some families are just broken families, but it took two humans to make that baby, one in four men also will experience a loss, whether they're present in that relationship or not. And that's something that I've really kept close to my heart, is to know regardless of your relationship with that person, you also experience that loss. It's not just one person, though she is physically carrying that child, and she will have to like grieve that loss of carrying the child that I have never experienced with with our children. I still carry the burden of knowing that she had to carry those our two boys and lose them. And knowing as a man, and I don't know if you can speak to this, if like this is your upbringing, I've always felt responsible for taking care of things in our home for my wife, and when I can't physically do something like that, I feel like I'm a failure. So when I couldn't, if I couldn't show up to take care of her after she lost our boys, like I felt like a failure because I was like, I want to fix this, but I can't. And I just feel like I what's my purpose? As men, I feel like our our purpose is to work and to fix things and to like show up for people, but it's like, how can I do those things if it's an unfixable situation?

SPEAKER_00: 56:16

And that and that's not that that goes that feeling goes away. Like you don't acknowledge that. You're like, yeah, there's nothing I could do. And I still feel responsible. You know, people are like, that doesn't make sense. Well, no, it yeah, I realize that, but yeah, I still feel responsible for that. And and that's something, you know, that that I want to really appreciate you for. The fact that you did go through this, right, and and have the experience. And as a man, in particular, that that you're you're not only having experienced it and processed it and being open about it, but you're also turning it into it's still returning to being a leader for both yourself, for other men, for other families to support and and bring that sort of leadership aspect back to the world, right? Of like, hey, I I did this, I experienced it, I'm processing it, but I want other people to know, right, that they're not alone in this. Right. Yep. Yeah. And and and I think all too often that that is something that, you know, I I I feel like we keep saying men in general, but to your point, I I think that it's something that the world is really starting to uh acknowledge, right, and take notice to. That like it's kind of like it's that yes and sort of thing, right? That that hey, you know what, like I do want to be the provider and have purpose and responsibility and all of those sort of things, but it happens to me as well. Yeah, right. Like regardless of what the situation is, men have emotions. And right, we're really starting to see the effects of what happens when men don't acknowledge, process, communicate those sort of emotions. And so getting the word out there in a very like strong and you know masculine sort of way, they're like, hey, this is a good thing. Like, and it's okay to have these feelings and these emotions. And and to your point, you know, one of the things that I've really noticed along my journey is that it when when men we we get, I I saw this process in myself and I see it in so many other men, that like we, you know, we leave school, whatever it might be, we start a family, start having kids, and we start showing up for our partner in those sort of ways. And at times that pulls us away from other connections and community, right? That like, hey, this is this is my purpose. I am keeping everything safe. And we forego those other relationships with men that keep things running when we need it, right? When times get tough like this. And so it it leaves us in this place of going alone, right? Of uh, you know, the the statistics, what is it like men basically at the end of it? I don't know what the statistic is off the top of my head, but like men do not have any close connections for the right part, right? And the suicide numbers are outrageous. And a lot of it lends itself to not fostering, you know, uh a lot of different things, right? It's not okay along the way to have those conversations and those have those vulnerabilities, but there's such a disconnection in fostering those connections and those communities. So just how important it is for you to not only provide for your family and keep them safe and that, but you also have to build the, you know, I don't want to say empire, but you have it's important to nurture and foster those connections with other men because there are other men out there, just like your story, that are having these similar struggles, but they're on an island alone with nobody to connect with, and they haven't reached a point yet, like they're dying inside.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:34

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:36

And they don't have somebody to connect with. And so people that are willing to step forward. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:42

No, I was just gonna say, I appreciate you using the being on an island analogy, because honestly, that is the most common thing I ever hear in this community, specifically in the lost community. It's like I'm on an island and I I don't know anybody else. And I remember after our first loss specifically, the amount of people that came up to us and we're they were like, I'm so sorry that you have to be part of this club, but know that you were not alone. And these are people that we knew day in and day out, like just passing by, but never knew that they had gone through loss. Because they don't talk like people don't talk about it openly. I I do like I'm I don't I I'm willing to share our story with anybody who's willing to listen. But there's a lot of especially the older generation that has gone through stuff like that, that never has talked about it, but they have lived with it for so long. And but again, before we went through our first loss, I didn't really know anybody that had experienced a loss. Like, I I mean I might have heard about it like once in a while, but I never like followed up with it. But after our loss, the amount of people that we knew personally that I was like, what they had a loss, like when they never talked to me about it, but why would they ever come talk to me who doesn't understand their situation? Yeah, and so it's like it's a it's a two-sided coin for that for me. It's like one, I understand why you wouldn't just go tell a random person about your lost story or your what you're grieving, but then at the second on the flip side of that, the reason why I'm so outspoken about it and why I'm willing to share our story is because when somebody finds out that we've had a loss, I never want them to feel uncomfortable to talk to me about it. Because I would love I love talking about our boys. I talk about Davian and Jaden all the time. I think about them every day. And I I know there's a stigma of like, especially in the United States, where talking about grief and talking about loss is like or even death in general. It's just like I don't know how to approach that conversation without feeling uncomfortable. Yeah, like you find them like running off into that. Exactly. And they're just like, oh, you uh I I don't know how to approach that. Super uncomfortable, yeah. It's and I'm like, I'm fine, like you're making this uncomfortable, I'm willing to have the conversation, you just aren't. And so that's something that I've really tried to work towards of like opening that conversation up so people don't feel uncomfortable talking to me about my my my kids. And one of the really hard and and I'll say this because I'm on both sides of it. I've experienced it, I should say I've experienced it in both sides, is when people ask, like before we had our daughter, people would ask us like, do you have kids or do you want kids after we had experienced our losses? And I was like, How how do you answer that question? Like, without them feeling uncomfortable. I'm like, we have kids, they're just no longer with us, they're they're they're no longer earthside. It's become easier now that we have our daughter, but again, that's not everybody's situation, and so that's something that I've learned to say, like, hey, yeah, we don't have kids currently, but or we we don't have earthside kids, but we do have two boys that that we love very much that are no longer with us, and I usually try and like bridge that so that they and then you can see like visibly, like they kind of like tense up and they're like, Oh, I shouldn't have asked that. And I guess the the thing I would encourage is like if somebody has an experience loss, just go about asking those kind of questions differently, or at least keeping in mind, like not everybody's story is going to be as open as my story is, and some people might be triggered by that. I actually have a sub stack that I've been writing a lot of articles on recently about grief and loss and stuff, and one of the more recent ones that I did was talking about death and talking about loss, and another one I did recently was about things not to say to somebody that went through loss. Um, because that is also something that we walk through, unfortunately, and it's like well-meaning comments that are just like not helpful at all and just cause a lot more issue. So just being mindful of like how you approach topics, out even outside of loss. I've become more aware of this. Of like if somebody is going, if somebody doesn't have kids, I don't want to just assume like, oh, it's because they're not they're not trying to have kids. How would I want to approach that situation? I would assess it based on the situation or the relationship I have with them. I'm not just gonna go up to them and be like, oh, do you have any kids? Oh no, we don't. Oh, well, you better start trying like you're you're in your 30s. Like that is that is something that has been said, yeah, that has been said to a friend of some friends of ours that are walking through years of infertility, and somebody just mindlessly said, like, oh, you better get on the on it because you're in your 30s now, and it's like, yeah, we've been trying for like a decade.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:41

Yeah. And we still and that that person unknowingly, right? And I can see from the other perspective is the person receiving it that they're like, dude, that guy has no idea. Like, I know you want to lose your mind right now, but that guy probably has good intentions. Yeah, exactly. But really, just kind of opening up the thought that everybody else, that everybody has different experiences, and we're not always privy to what that is. Right. I think that's a really good takeaway that there's a lot of things that are going on in this world at any given time that we have no idea are happening. Yeah, I from time to time I have this thought, you know, and it's kind of this image as I'm walking down the street. You know, you ever see in like the the kind of in the horror movies where people are walking around on the street and they're like these ghosts, you know, you see these different faces of them, right? And maybe that's a cynical way of kind of saying it, but but just recognizing as you're walking around that like there's a whole nother life and world that's going on for these people that you have no idea about. And that doesn't mean for me that like I need to be going up. I I'm a very deep, thoughtful, empathetic. I love connecting with people. Yeah, for sure. That doesn't mean I need to go out and like ask everybody their deepest, darkest secrets. Right. Exactly. But just realizing as you walk around it, you know, and this is something I talk a lot about at times that realizing as you walk around that what you say or do in that moment could be what makes that person's day, their week, their month, right? That showing gratitude, being kind, that you have no idea that you the the impact that you make in any given day.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:31

And so yeah, absolutely. I would also say to that point, like to not walk around on eggshells around people too. Like it depending, I would say, like, know the know the depth of the relationship and know the boundaries. But like for me, for example, I'm only speaking from my perspective. If somebody was to come up to me that I have a decent relationship with, and we've never talked about our boys, and they ask me about our boys and they say something insensitive, now, like well-meaning, but it comes off like insensitive. I wouldn't be mad at that person. I would give them grace and just be like, this is a this is a teachable moment for you.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:16

I'm gonna I'm gonna unpack what you just said and show you how that could be hurtful to me and how you could approach that situation differently with somebody down the road. Not to shame you, but just to point out like this could come across really, really hurtful to somebody, but I also want you to know the depths of that question and why it is so important to me, why you ask that. And I appreciate you asking that. Yeah, and so that that's something else that I'm always aware of ever since our our journey is giving people grace, but also using teachable moments to really help people in a way because I I honestly before our journey, like I wasn't prepared to talk about death and grief and loss, a lot of other things, yeah, exactly. It's like since our journey, it's like I've I've begun to educate myself on how to have those conversations, having those hard conversations, and especially on conversations that I don't know firsthand experience, but I'm willing to show up for that person. One of the things I wrote in the book, I gotta find the quote quick because somebody actually recently quoted it, and I thought it was so impactful of what they said. I know it was my words, but I was like, oh yeah, I kind of I forgot I wrote that one time. But it says, Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do is sit with somebody in their grief. Words can hurt more than help if they are shallow or misplaced. Presence, though, sometimes that's enough. And that's from the book. And when I when I saw them post that, I was just like, I know I wrote that, but those those words are so important because sometimes looking back on it, the most impactful moments I had with somebody was when they just came and sat with me and didn't didn't say anything, no expectations, they just sat with me. Because that's what I needed was just somebody to just know like I was going through it, and I just need you to be be there for me, and just a presence that I knew if I could reach out to you that you'd be there, and that was so impactful. And sometimes that's just what we need is just somebody to sit with you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:44

Yeah, man. I think that's so true that especially as men, our tendency is to want to fix things, right? And to that point, like there's nothing that anybody can fix. Yeah, right. Like there's no there, there's no fix. So I I appreciate that. That's great, but I I just want you to be here.

unknown: 1:12:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:06

Well, hey man, as we start to wrap up, this has been an amazing conversation, and I've loved connecting with you. As we start to wrap up, like how can other other people, all right? It doesn't have to just be men, but how can other people connect with you to to hear more of your story?

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:21

To yeah, for sure. So I I'm active on Substack. My my handle is Life on the Other Side, or if you're just looking for my username, it's just JSloving. And then that's also my Instagram handle. I'm very active on Instagram, also just JSloving. If you wanted to buy the book, if you wanted to get a copy of Holding On to the Light, it is available on Amazon. You just type in the title and it'll just pop right up. It'll be like the only one, and it will be. I I went through Amazon publishing, so once you buy it, it just gets automatically shipped to your door, um, which is fantastic. And as I said earlier on, at the very end of the book, there is an email address holding on to the lightbook at gmail.com. And like I said, that's just an email address directly to me. I'm the only one that has access to it as a resource for people to connect, whether it be fathers that just want to share their story, parents that just need resources and want to connect. If it's people that are looking for a guest on their podcast, like send me an email, organizations that are looking for resources or wanting to connect with me. That's that is my main email address that I use for all of that stuff. And I'm I'm very I I like to pride myself of saying I'm very quick at responding to emails or or messages or anything like that. I try and be very responsive within a day, maybe two at the most. But but yeah, I'm I'm more than willing to connect with anybody. I love hearing stories, I love just encouraging people to just find find a better path to healing and just being better versions of themselves. And if if I can do that, that's that's all right with me.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:16

So changing the world, man.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14:19

Yep, absolutely. One conversation at a time.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:21

Yeah, absolutely. All right, man. Well, hey, we'll probably chat again soon, but thanks again for your story and and being willing to share it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14:29

So of course, thank you for so much for having me. And I I'm I just I'm just really praying and hoping that your mission and your vision continues to reach the audience and beyond that that you're looking to do as well. Because what you're doing here is so needed as well. And so I just really appreciate that about you as well.

SPEAKER_00: 1:14:52

So thanks, man. I appreciate it. Of course. All right, have a good one.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14:56

Yes, you too. Have a great day. Bye.

SPEAKER_00: 1:15:00

Hey, before you go, this podcast is just the surface. The real work happens inside the Evolve Men Brotherhood. This is our private community of men committed to leading themselves boldly, building confidence, and sharpening one another in the fire. Registration officially opens December 1st, and we kick off our Brotherhood calls together beginning in January 2026. But you can get on the list today and be the first to claim your spot. If you're tired of going to life alone and you're ready for true accountability, support, and connection with men who get it, head to Evolvmen Project.comslash Brotherhood. Don't just listen. Step into the Brotherhood. I'll see you inside.