SPEAKER_01: 0:04

Are you ready to break free from hesitation, self-doubt, and isolation? Do you want to lead with confidence, build powerful connections, and live boldly? I'm Corey Baum, and I'm here to share the most impactful strategies and mindsets that I've learned through coaching, leadership, and real-world experience. Together we'll forge unshakable confidence, master social dynamics, and create a life rooted in purpose, brotherhood, and bold action. Inside, you'll get the tools and insights to become the strongest, most connected version of yourself. Let's dive in. Hey man, welcome to the Evolve Men Podcast. I uh appreciate you coming on the show today.

SPEAKER_00: 0:41

Thank you for having me on the show.

SPEAKER_01: 0:43

Yeah, absolutely. Well, hey, why don't you just kind of start us off telling us a little bit about your your story and your past and who you are and and whatnot?

SPEAKER_00: 0:54

I grew up in well, I was born in Tingsboro, Massachusetts, which is right by the border of Massachusetts and New Hampshire. Was bullied by the neighbor next door, Brian. But on the other side, I had I found my best friend, Tim, because he had an in-ground pool, and I loved him. So we shared that in common. So we all packed up, left our comfortable place in Massachusetts, and ventured up to Vermont where the rest of my family was. And it was the biggest mistake my parents could have ever made. It's very isolating, there's not much to do, and I've found it very, very difficult to make friends. In 2004, I worked at a car dealership. They didn't pay me for my commission, so I took matters into my own hands and tried to sell one of their vehicles. I got caught, got charged, went to court, and Judge Jeffrey Crawford and Bob Wolford decided I didn't meet the criteria to get into the mental health court, even though I have autism and I'm on the Asperger spectrum and been seeing therapists my entire life, probably seeing about 30 therapists in my whole life. It was a revolving door. I would go to one, it wouldn't work, go to another, it wouldn't work. So I went, if if I was allowed to complete the mental health court, I may not have a record today. But instead, I went through the regular court, got out, couldn't find a job, so I used other people's information to pass a background check. That was in 2009. The government pursued me for six years, got an indictment after going to five grand juries, spent about a half a million dollars, and got indicted in 2016, went to federal prison for 18 months, and went to 10 different institutions. They didn't know what to do with me. I wrote a lot of grievances to hold, and the grievance system is to hold guards responsible for their actions and to document what's going on. And at that time I was chronicling my journey through the criminal justice system because I didn't want anybody to have to go through what I went through. I got out, wrote my story, four years later, published my book in February 2022. And that was about the same time I started my men's work, where I really have really uncovered a lot of anger, hate, hostility, resentment that I had and been able to unpack that in a safe space with men who are willing to go to the deep end of the pool with me. And that's what I'm looking for today is to find friends that are willing to go to the deep end of the pool. And what I find is a lot of men want to stick in the shallow end of the pool. They want to talk about nonsense like sports and weather. Because it's safe. There's not much risk to that. But I find that going to the deep end of the pool and getting to know people is really where friendships evolve.

SPEAKER_01: 4:53

Yeah, it's almost like I say often that it's like the, and I don't know if I'll necessarily use it right, but it's kind of the glue that holds everything together, right? The the the vulnerability, you know, and I have for a lack of different words to use, like I've I've said before that I only trust somebody so much until it's to like the depth at which we've been vulnerable with each other, right? So with the guy that we're like hanging out, we're talking about sports, like, yeah, you know, he's he's a cool guy, right? Like, but it takes going through the the different levels, right? Going through peeling back the layers of the onion, sharing, you know, receiving, supporting, really like going to the deep end of the pool, as you, as you mentioned, to really to really get to know somebody and to really trust. And so, and I I I can imagine that there along the way on your journey, that there's it's hard to to make that connection with other people that are willing to have those sort of conversations, right? That there's a lot of story there that is building and a pressure and a sort of thing, just waiting, you know, for somebody. I can imagine that that's a that's a hard thing to to open up to like it's really important to find the right environment to do that in.

SPEAKER_00: 6:22

And a safe space. Yeah, that takes a lot because, like I said, I've been through a lot of therapists. My issue with therapy is it's always one way. And when I am I won't feel comfortable opening up unless the other person opens up as well.

SPEAKER_01: 6:40

Yeah. Yeah. And you're not gonna, therapists aren't necessarily sharing their perspectives, right? Their past or their history or anything like that. And that kind of goes back to what I was saying of that that exchange between two people, right? Whether it's in a circle or men's group or whatever it is, where there's there's something to you being able to share with somebody and then having that, you know, maybe at times reflecting back to you to say, man, like I have maybe I haven't been in the same exact sort of situation, but you know, here's where I've struggled with some of those things in the past, and you're not alone, you know, to to know it's uh to your point that the that they've they've seen or they've struggled with these sort of things as well.

unknown: 7:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 7:25

Well, we've all struggled with issues. You know, not everybody who's gonna come to a men's weekend has necessarily been through prison. In fact, most haven't. But everybody who is coming to a men's weekend, Corey, there's a reason they're coming. Broken marriage, divorce, issues with children, whatever it is, there's a every the people, the men that are coming, and then you know, also if if you're a woman, you need to do women's work. Every there's a a cataclysmic event that happened that's causing that person to come. There's a want and desire to change their my way of thinking, their way of thinking, because it's not working. And the definition of insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. So, what I found is that men that have somebody else paying for them to go to a weekend, they're checked out, they're they're not engaged. But when somebody has skin in the game and is paying to come to a weekend, they're they're really in it for the long run.

SPEAKER_01: 8:33

Sure. Yeah. I mean, that's like, you know, giving your kid his first car sort of thing. Like it's never a good prognosis. It's not very long. The the life of that car is there's a date stamped in it. But tell you what, you know, you you make that kid work for it, chores or whatever it is, that he's out there. He drives a little slower, he drives with a little bit more caution, you know, and intention and purpose. Like, hey, I showed up here. I want to, I, I want to invest in it. I want men to invest in me, and I want to invest in other men. That yeah. So what does that journey look like for you? I mean, when when you started going from transitioning from therapy, which, you know, and we we talked a little bit about before we hit record, that there's a lot of solid work that does get done in therapy and it does help people, but there is also, you know, I I guess if it's looked at from another perspective or modality, that different things for different people. So what what was for you like when you started making the shift towards doing this work with other men? What what was that like for you?

SPEAKER_00: 9:44

Well, at first I was petrified. I didn't know how other people were going to react to what I was gonna share. As well as I don't fit in that box that is typical of men's circles. Married, have kids, that I am an outlier. So, and that's still always a challenge is to find commonality with men because all of my friends that I've met at men's weekends all are married and have kids. So I think it's really important to, and then also for me, being autistic and being on the Asperger spectrum, I come with I come with my strengths and my weaknesses, but I come to the table differently than the typical man would. So for me, I like to just lay all my cards out there. You know, I have I have autism, I'm on the Asperger spectrum, so that you know, I'm gay, I'm not looking to be converted through conversion therapy to a heterosexual person. Because I've actually seen a lot of organizations where they try to transition somebody that isn't in that box to something that they want them that to fit in their box. And that's not me, and I'm never gonna do that. And they should be ashamed of themselves for asking another person to do that.

SPEAKER_01: 11:27

Yeah. Well, I I think that regardless of you know different things that we identify with, that there's there's an overarching theme throughout all of this, you know. And we kind of talked about, you know, married kids, these sort of things, but there's still a there's still a thread that goes throughout all of those sort of things. And even to the extent women's work, right? That and it's something that that I had given some thought to lately and how to in relating and connecting with people, right? Like, oh hey, you know, I my kids wrestle, right? Like I, you know, I can only talk to those people because they wrestle, you know, or their wrestling dads or their soccer dads or whatever it is, as as a way of like, and I was thinking to myself, like, what is it that we we all share in common? And really for me, it kind of came down to the fact of we're all human and we're all experiencing life and we all go through, you know, we all have things that we that we struggle with and and our challenges. And and yeah, you know, some of these groups when we show up are focused at supporting, you know, fathers, right? Or any of that sort of bit. But I think that there at the end of that, there is a real need. There are there are commonalities, regardless of what some of the specifications are of it just being men. So what so kind of in your experience, I'm I'm curious to to understand a little bit more. Like, I mean, I have a little bit of a perspective or picture of like what life looked like before starting to do this work, but what was it like for you when you started opening up and and you started laying out all your cars and really just saying like, hey, this is who I am. You know, how how was that how was that received and how has that changed for you since then?

SPEAKER_00: 13:28

It was received well from certain individuals and wasn't received well from other individuals. But for me, I'm one of those people that what other people think of me is none of my business. I'm there to work on myself, I'm not there to work on anyone else.

unknown: 13:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 13:47

I'm not there to people please and look for affirmation. The only person that I want affirmation is God Jesus Christ in heaven. And I think when we have expectations of other human beings, we will always be disappointed. Because no human being can live up to our expectations.

SPEAKER_01: 14:12

So walk me through like your your first times as you were starting to step into this. Because I know even for myself, stepping into Tim Men's work for the first time and starting to share some of these stories that I had never told anybody at the time besides maybe my therapist, right? That that's daunting and overwhelming, right? And but at the same time, I found it to be like incredibly healing and relieving. Like what was what's what's been your experience with that?

SPEAKER_00: 14:44

It's been mixed emotions, uh, depending upon who I'm with and how it's received, because my story is different than most of the guys that are coming on the weekend because my story is unique, and and that's fine. But I also understand that you know, I'm not for everyone. That's one of my favorite songs by the brothers of Osmore. And, you know, one of my I'll always like to say, you know, the Bible says what it means, it means what it says, and that's how I am. I'm very direct, you're gonna know what I think, and I don't sugarcoat anything. And usually I make up my mind very quickly if I like somebody or not. And it's very, very, very rarely wrong about it. And it's it's all about you know how that person, are they congruent? Do their words match their emotions, or are they incongruent? Because if they're incongruent, then I can't trust them. And one of my favorite questions to ask people is have you ever had an affair? Because if somebody has had an affair, they have no issues being deceptive, being dishonest, talking about me behind my back. Because having an affair takes is very premeditated, it takes a lot of planning to do.

SPEAKER_01: 16:22

Yeah. So for you, right, stepping into that space and sharing that sort of things, like I can imagine that, you know, and I know from my own experience having stepped into it, that it was there was a lot to there was a lot to share, right? And I think that to your point that that can be overwhelming for people as well. But that, but at the same time, like that's kind of there's a part of that that that's the beauty in it as well, right? To start to realize that not everybody has the same life, right? That that there are similarities, sure, and that's great, but there's a there's a beauty to be had from the different life experiences, right? And and to your point and and your past and your history, like being able to bring that to the table and share your experiences, and it doesn't even always have to be a like, hey, let me tell you how to fix your shit, right? It can be like this is what I've experienced in my life, and this is what I've found, you know, worked and maybe didn't work. And the idea of letting somebody take away from that what they will on their own. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00: 17:44

Like one of the one thing I like to ask friends, are you looking for advice? Are you looking for support? Because I know when people try to give me advice and I didn't ask for it, it frustrates me.

SPEAKER_01: 18:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 18:01

And absolutely the other important thing is using I statements. I found a lot of guys in groups like to use we, they, you statements. And it's much more powerful to make I statements because my experience is vastly different from every other man in that room. And I don't want to be included in somebody's you, we, they statements. And I've had to correct people a lot. And when I I try to help out, sometimes it doesn't go over well with that person.

SPEAKER_01: 18:39

It's uh I can see it as being very like polarizing, you know, it that when you bring that up, when you make that apparent to somebody. Interestingly that you mentioned that one of the the agreements that we made made make in our local men's group that I facilitated for a long time was was just that that we speak in the eye, right? Not the well, you know, this is how it is for men, or you know what I mean? Like we're here to share and talk about our experience as we've lived it, as we see it. And I think that it's it can be really easy. And and it kind of just goes back to my previous point of how sharing our experience with other people can be such an awakening experience to realize like, holy shit, like there's no it didn't look the way that I thought that everybody else doesn't live life the way that I do. Right. And so yeah, I think that you know, to sometimes to maybe to people's in in their defense or to their credit, that maybe they use a a we or an us or a men because they truly expect that that's what life looks like for everybody else, not knowing. You know, that they're they're ignorant of the fact that that's not how it looks like for everybody. Not everybody struggles with these same things or has these challenges. So I can, you know, I I can appreciate that that that's something that you, you know, try and help in supporting people. You're right. It sounds like not only for yourself, but encouraging that in others because it can be, and people do it without even knowing.

SPEAKER_00: 20:26

I know. I just had a friend conversation with a friend earlier today. He didn't even know he was doing it. Yeah. And he was taken back by the fact that he did it so many times. And sometimes I'll actually count how many times somebody does it on a phone call. And it's astounding.

SPEAKER_01: 20:44

And there's there's a part of it that I wonder at times, and I don't know if, you know, going deep too, I don't want to go too deep into it, but it's it's kind of a sense of taking responsibility, right? It's a lot easier to say, like, oh, you know, men always trying to fix things. It's what we do. You know, we can't get away from it. No, you have a tendency to want to do things.

unknown: 21:12

Correct.

SPEAKER_01: 21:13

That guy over there might too. And a few other, you know, a lot of other guys might as well. But we're we're here talking about you and your life experience, you know, and so when somebody has to actually say I, it's it's challenging. And so I'm not surprised, you know, that maybe at times that it has for you people, you know, are like, fuck, who is this guy? You know, like he's always correcting it to the eye because it can't, it's there is an aspect of it, and it goes back to your safe environment, right? There is an aspect of it that you have to trust that people are bringing those things up. There is a attack to it, right? A better, a good, and an optimal way to support somebody in terminology and stuff. So it is really important as men are looking to do this work that you do find a group that a container that is is safe and supportive of these sort of things.

SPEAKER_00: 22:12

Right. And we always do a check-in and we use the six emotions sad, angry, scared, happy, excited. And the tea is tender. I don't like tender, so I the only time I hear tender is around meat. So I replace it with loving. And sometimes I'll hear a guy check in that he's full sachet. He's all six emotions. And I always say, how can you be six vastly different emotions all at the same time? But it's a cop-out. It's like if I just say sachet, then a guy's not going to ask me really how I am. So I encourage people to pick one or two emotions that they're feeling right now, not an hour ago, not yesterday, but right now, how are they feeling? And a lot of guys struggle with it because they don't know how how they are at the present moment. And that's what it is. It's the present moment in the circle, based on what you know, where they are, the conversation that happened, and it's very hard for a lot of guys to check in with how they're feeling at that present moment.

SPEAKER_01: 23:27

Yeah. Well, I think that you know, a lot of men don't, they they've never gotten in touch with that sort of thing, right? That, you know, whether it's very logical or emotions are weak or whatever the story might be, that in their defense, you know, sometimes they don't know, right? You know, and and yeah. So it's how how was that for you? I mean, was that something that came really naturally to you when you started doing the work?

SPEAKER_00: 23:59

Absolutely not. First of all, I hate talking about myself. It's something I really don't like doing. And it's hard for me to open up because I have trust issues. I've had people break confidentiality. So I have a difficult time trusting the container. But what I found is that, especially with reflective listening, which is a great skill. And the way we do that is whoever goes first will randomly pick the next man. And it's amazing how many men are not paying any attention. They'll say, Don't pick me, I'm not paying attention. But it's a real skill to be able to reflect based on a man's share in a couple of sentences without repeating exactly what he said and being prepared. And I've learned that skill a long time ago because I'm a salesperson, so I can remember what somebody shared and I'm in tune. I'm listening to what they're saying because a lot of people listen with the intention to respond instead of fully listening to what somebody is sharing.

SPEAKER_01: 25:15

Absolutely. That is a that is an art, right? Like you said, to actually, and I've found for myself that getting clarification on that, right? So, hey, what what I heard you say, right, or the story that I told myself from what I took away from that is that you know, the you were hurt and upset about that conversation, right? And it gives you the opportunity, if that wasn't right, to to come back and be like, no, actually, that's not what it was at all. What I meant to, what I meant by what I shared was this. Okay, well, great. I'm glad I'm glad that we clarified that. You know? So it's it's definitely there's a lot of uses and and purposes for it. So when, you know, as we talked about the you don't like necessarily the sharing was super uncomfortable when you started getting into it. Like, how did you start breaking into that ice? Like, what was it about the environment and the container that made it feel okay to do that?

SPEAKER_00: 26:21

I think when you're spending an entire weekend with men up on a mountain, you start opening up and you start being vulnerable and sharing that emotion.

SPEAKER_01: 26:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 26:40

You're doing all sorts of activities. You don't know what's next. As a participant, you don't know what's next. As a staff man, which I've done both, I've participated in staff. I like staffing better. A lot of people ask me why. Because I am much more in tune with what the men are saying than when I was a participant. Because when I was a participant, I was just like this. I was only focused about myself and getting my story out there. And then once my story was out there, that's why I always went first. Then I could listen. But I was still not, at least the first time I did a weekend, I was still kind of gun shy. I wasn't sure how people would be receiving it, what they would say, would people be gossiping behind my back? So there were all sorts of stories that I was telling myself. But when I staff, I see everything that's going on. I see the dynamics, I see who's getting close to whom. And it's it's amazing to see it. And I want to talk to everybody. You know, I don't want to just talk to certain people because we as human beings, we as men and women, tend to gravitate towards people that are like us. And I like to get out of my comfort zone and talk to somebody that I may not talk to on the street. Because I want to sh find out why I wouldn't talk to somebody like this.

SPEAKER_01: 28:06

Why do you think for you that that because it it kind of sounds like from what I hear you saying, is that when you're when you're a staff member of the the retreat, the weekend or whatever it is, that it kind of sounds like that there's less guards, right? And less like apprehension about connecting with people and sharing your story. But when maybe you're on the other side of the table or whatever, that there's this like apprehension about whether or not how it'll be received. But but yet if you're a staff member, like I'm willing to tell my story, you know, unhinged. And I and I don't hold on to what uh what it is that other people think. Why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_00: 28:50

Because I've already shared it, I participated, so there's gonna be guys in the room that already know my story. And I I don't care anymore. So I if I've if I'm staff, I don't care about what other people are gonna think about me because I'm coming up there to support other men.

SPEAKER_01: 29:14

It's not about you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 29:16

Right. But as a participant, you don't know what time it is, you don't have your phone, the the staff have gone through your stuff, you know, not quite like a when you're in jail, but I can't have certain things that I want. Food is limited, so all of these things that I'm used to, I'm not in control. And so the the men that have the biggest challenge are those that have never had to find, search, work for anything. People who have had everything handed to them have an extremely difficult time. I've been in prison twice, so what are you gonna do to me? But men that haven't experienced being told what to do have a very difficult time. The people who don't do their homework assignment don't bring their food item. It's the way a man shows up to the weekend is exactly how he shows up in life. If he procrastinates, we'll see it. If he doesn't do his homework assignment, we'll see it. And it's all a mirror of how he is in life.

SPEAKER_01: 30:34

Yeah, so true. You know, I I just want to add that not, I mean, it sounds like you were at a very kind of specific retreater sort of weekend. It's not that anybody showing up to a local men's group is gonna, you know, check your phone at the door sort of thing. I mean, distractions should be should be limited, but these aren't it's not kind of across the board. It's really about creating that space and that container to be able to show up and support and share and listen and and to see what it is that other other men are growing through, sort of thing. So but it sounds like a pretty powerful experience that that you've had during those weekends.

SPEAKER_00: 31:19

Every weekend is phenomenal, and I always, as soon as I leave, I miss it.

SPEAKER_01: 31:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 31:27

Because it's like nothing you'll ever see in the men that are there, you'll never be with the exact same men. I don't care if you do one more weekend or you do a hundred. The container is never going to be exactly the same, it's always gonna be different.

SPEAKER_01: 31:44

What is it that you think the about that container and that environment that you miss at the end of it? Because I've I've had the same experience, you know, not only on in a on a random night that the I host a local group or going away for a weekend to something, that man, like the connections that I make during that weekend and the level of vulnerability, it's it's like a hangover. And to your point, like immediately after leaving, I'm like, dude, I just want to step back into that. And that's something that I think that you know should often be carried back into society after we leave these things. But from you and your experience, like what is what is it that you that leaves you wanting more at the end of that weekend?

SPEAKER_00: 32:29

Because all the men are coming for a specific reason. It wasn't by random, it wasn't by chance, it's because there's something in their life that they want to fix. So just like with God, in order to have God, I have to realize that I'm not enough, I'm not sufficient, and I want more. Men that are coming to a weekend have that same desire that they want to change, that they see that their life is, you know, as the big book, the Bill's big book says, unmanageable. And they they want to make a change. And sometimes guys don't know what to do. And they're looking for some advice, support to get them where they need to go. But the work never ends. Just because you do a weekend doesn't mean the work ends. I do, I find things that I never thought of after a weekend. And I think it's really important for guys to journal and remaining in silence. We do that a lot. A lot of guys struggle with that. Like silence, what's going on? But we want a man to be able to reflect what just happened. And when we have our cell phone or we have other things that are distractions, I can't be fully present if my cell phone is right next to me.

SPEAKER_01: 33:58

Well, I think it kind of goes back to what you were saying earlier about being able to reflect back what it is that they just heard, right? And and presence and really being where it is that you are in the moment. And it it is, it's challenging, you know. I think in a a day and a time right now where there's an expectation that we should be able to get a hold of anybody in any instant, right? If I send you a message, you know, your shown, your phone shouldn't be far away. I should be able to get a hold of you. And there's an expectation that you know we should have an answer right away, or we should be in ten different places at once. But it's so yeah, I I think it's becoming ever more challenging every day to be in that moment.

SPEAKER_00: 34:47

I think it's important to take a day off of social media, cell phone, and really find out what's really more important. Because you have to remember that social media is the way people want the world to see them. It's not reality. There's nothing realistic about it. And a men's weekend, they're men are coming that want to figure out life, they want to find a ways to so it's not as hard. They want to connect with other people. So there's some reason they're there. And a lot of guys may not say it right at the beginning. My job is to get to the cut out the fat and get to what's going really going on. And you won't do that without asking questions, and it won't happen on day one. It it takes a little bit of time.

SPEAKER_01: 35:49

Yeah, that's a really good point that you make. You know, and you said it kind of earlier about having the hard conversations and doing those sort of things, that I think it's it can be it can be challenging. I I think at times that we see, right, we can read between those sort of things, but having that conversation and getting cutting through the fat can be hard. But I think on the other side of that often is where a lot of growth happens. And so the faster that we can cut through that that bullshit, you know, or whatever it might be, that the faster that we can get to, you know, peace, harmony, growth, whatever it it might be.

SPEAKER_00: 36:31

And being able to like all somebody out if they're not if they're being incongruent.

SPEAKER_01: 36:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 36:39

And it takes a special type of person to do that. Because not every everybody's capable of do that doing that.

SPEAKER_01: 36:49

Yeah, definitely. Well, you mentioned earlier, and I and I wanted to bring it back up, the that you had written a book about your experiences. Tell us, tell me more about it.

SPEAKER_00: 37:02

It's called Bully Behind Bars, a gay Christian Trump supporter goes to prison. And it chronicles my life, my story, where I was, how I got from through the pain of being in prison, journaling, praying, you know, because I spent a lot of time in solitary confinement because at several other facilities, the inmates would lie to the guards and tell them I was propositioning them, and then they would put me in solitary confinement. And until you've been in solitary confinement, which is the low of the low, you don't know the challenges. You've got it really going well if you're until you've been in solitary confinement. But here's the key they may have had my body, they didn't have my mind. And there are people out there that they may not be in solitary confinement physically, but they're in a prison in their head.

SPEAKER_01: 38:03

Yeah. I love that. That's an interesting thought. That yeah, they are they're in there for life, right? That they're not necessarily life, but it's there is a stronghold where they're at.

SPEAKER_00: 38:18

And if somebody's in fear, anxiety, depression, addiction, they cannot really truly get in touch with what's going on. Can't they can't have God?

SPEAKER_01: 38:33

How did you start to make that transition out of you got after you got out? So you said that you had written your book and published it, and then that's when you started getting into the men's work.

SPEAKER_00: 38:44

Because I my life was unmanageable, as the big book says. I wanted to make changes and find some friends that I could do life with. And I wasn't gonna find that unless I started doing the men's work. And that's where I found some of my closest friends is doing this men's work, going to a weekend, sharing my story, hearing their experiences, and talking about it, talking about solutions. It's not necessarily about fixing somebody else. If I'm trying to fix somebody else, then there's something that's going on with me. There's a reason I I'm trying, I feel that I need to fix that person. The only person I can fix is myself. I can't fix another person. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make a drink.

SPEAKER_01: 39:36

Yeah. You know, I love the point that you made too. And it's kind of what we were touching on earlier about how just the fact of sharing our story. So there's so many different facets of doing the work, right? There's the work working on you and how you change yourself and your life and that bit, but there's also the part of you. Giving back and sharing to others, right? So there's there's where it also the fact of you sharing is you know therapeutic or relieving or whatever for yourself, but that has the ability to open up someone else to the possibility of sharing, hearing your story, right? I mean, just you being here today, right, is a is a there's you know a possibility that a man at the other end of where at the other end of this that is like, man, yeah, like I this sees a lot of similarities and resemblances. And so just by it's not having to fix somebody, but by showing up and sharing your story, there's there's a real healing power with that as well. So there's so many different perspectives and aspects. I think a lot of guys show up, you know, and and I don't know what comes first in the process of healing themselves and doing the work, right? Then getting to the point of feeling comfortable enough to share, to where it starts helping others, but excuse me, there's so much, so many different ways to give back.

SPEAKER_00: 41:18

Yeah, and that's why I stop because I give back. I'm there for the men, I'm not there for myself.

SPEAKER_01: 41:26

Yeah. Well, I I think, and interestingly, at times, you know, for for me or for myself at least, that it it gives back and it contributes to me in a different sort of way. So I might be there facilitating or staffing or whatever that is, but hearing this the same stories, right, continues to work on me as well. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 41:50

So yeah, it's a twofold story.

SPEAKER_01: 41:52

Yeah. Yeah. So how do you think for you? I mean, that's that's an incredible story, and I'm I I can't even begin to to relate with it, but I I'm curious of how that's changed for you over time now that you've you've been in this arena with other men and and sharing your story and doing the work, like what does life look like for you now I'm always working on myself and sharing my story because I hope it inspires other people.

SPEAKER_00: 42:26

And I don't want to have anybody go through what I went through. But the work never ends. I'm still working on myself, it'll never end.

SPEAKER_01: 42:35

Yeah. Yeah, I think it really goes from one phase of life to the other. How have these so how have these connections, I mean, are they connections that you find yourself returning back to, to supporting each other, to reaching out? What does that look like for you?

SPEAKER_00: 42:56

All of the above.

SPEAKER_01: 42:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 43:00

And each friendship is at different levels. There are certain friendships that I'm, you know, not it's all open. And other friendships, it's it's not. In other words, there's levels. There's a, b, c, d, e. An e-relationship is very different from an A. An e-relationship is very surface, there's not much depth to it. Versus an A is you you can ask me whatever you want. So I am an open book with closed chapters. I know a lot of guys come to the weekend and say I'm an open book. And then I'll ask you.

SPEAKER_01: 43:39

As long as you ask me these certain things.

SPEAKER_00: 43:41

Yeah, just give me a list of the questions that are.

SPEAKER_01: 43:44

Have you ever had an affair before? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 43:47

That is, like I said, that is one of my favorite questions to ask because it shows a lot of character of that individual.

SPEAKER_01: 43:58

You know, and and I I would say on that note that when I think about myself and and I I enjoy having those conversations with people and learning about somebody. And it's never though to stone them or think negatively, right? Like when I think about that and I think about asking somebody the question have you ever had an affair before, or have you ever done anything that you're not proud of or you're ashamed of, right? That I still, at least for myself, hold personally, that it's not so much. I mean, I might defer something from that or infer, that maybe is the right word, something from that. But that man's on his own journey. And if he decides that he's comfortable enough to be able to share that with me, then then right on. That's great. But it's also acceptable for me at least to just let that be where it is in that moment, right? I I can imagine for yourself that there may have been a time, well, it sounds like where it was really uncomfortable, uncomfortable for you to share parts of your story as well.

SPEAKER_00: 45:14

In the beginning, like I mentioned to you earlier, it was very, very challenging because I wasn't sure how it would be received. But then when I saw that it was received well, then I shared I I felt much more comfortable sharing it with others.

SPEAKER_01: 45:30

Yeah. And so my my point is kind of that and and I I had this come up in a conversation lately, and it's the reason I kind of mention it, is not that like I I think there gets to be this persona or this thought of like growing harder, right? Like, oh, you know, you need to like, you need to bear your soul to the world. Like, you're not really are you really growing? Are you really developing? Are you doing because you're not willing to like tell everybody everything? And so I don't personally feel like there is that somebody is better than or less than because they are or are not willing at that time to share. Does that mean that they'll never share? No, maybe not, right? But it's kind of that sense of like meeting someone where they're at, you know. If I know in that moment that like, hey, maybe things aren't necessarily lining up with what they're saying. Okay. Hey man, keep showing up. I'm glad to see you here. You know, and keep keep doing the work. So yeah. Well, so as as you continue along in this, do you find that it sounds like you've transitioned from not only doing your own work, but into supporting others? So it sounds like it, and and I know from my own experience that it has this effect of there's such change and growth in ourselves that we want to see that in others as well. How has that how do you feel like that that work has changed you?

SPEAKER_00: 47:11

Like, you know, I want to serve other men and help them get through that pain because I know that getting through that pain, hate, resentment is gonna be a much better person on the other side. But it all starts with loving. I have to love myself. And if that means standing in the mirror and saying I love you every single morning, that's what it takes. But I can't love another person if I don't love myself.

SPEAKER_01: 47:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 47:44

And I think the I think it's important to say I love you, but I love myself more.

SPEAKER_01: 47:52

Sure. I mean, it's that like put your own mask on first mentality. Right? You gotta make sure that you've got oxygen before you start trying to run around the plane and help other people and save other people. And to your point, that doesn't necessarily mean that that I've got it all figured out. Right? That this is I'm for myself at least, that two people can be supporting necessarily each other in different ways and aspects of life. That it's it's a it's a journey, I think to say the least.

SPEAKER_00: 48:31

Right. And the way I offer support is very different than any other person is gonna offer support.

unknown: 48:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 48:37

But I'm a I'm a sales guy, so I ask a lot of questions because I can't figure out what's going on if I don't ask questions. And it's really about asking the right questions.

SPEAKER_01: 48:49

Yeah. So true. So true. Yeah, it's and what means one thing to one person might mean something completely different to another.

unknown: 49:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 49:04

Well, hey man, as we start to wrap up, where can men learn more about you and your book and your your journey along this?

SPEAKER_00: 49:15

My book is available on Amazon. Again, bullied behind bars, a gay Christian Trump supporter goes to prison. You can email me, bullybehind bars at gmail.com. I'm on Instagram, bullybehind bars, Facebook, Matthew.melvin.5621 X, formerly Twitter, Bars Bullied. And my website, www.bulliedbehindbars.com. Reach out to me. Let me know what's going on. I'm happy to help out.

SPEAKER_01: 49:43

Yeah. That's great. I love it. I I just want to say I really appreciate the work that you're doing out in the world with with other men, both, you know, for yourself of showing up to just be another a better man in the world, but also the way that you're supporting others. I think it's I think more men, the world needs more men that are doing that. So I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00: 50:07

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01: 50:08

Yeah. All right. Well, hey, we'll wrap up there. It was good chatting with you, Matt.

SPEAKER_00: 50:13

You too. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 50:15

Hey, before you go, this podcast is just the surface. The real work happens inside the Evolve Men Brotherhood. This is our private community of men committed to leading themselves boldly, building confidence, and sharpening one another in the fire. Registration officially opens December 1st, and we kick off our Brotherhood calls together beginning in January 2026. But you can get on the list today and be the first to claim your spot. If you're tired of going to life alone and you're ready for true accountability, support, and connection with men who get it, head to Evolvement Project.comslash Brotherhood. Don't just listen, step into the Brotherhood. I'll see you inside.