SPEAKER_00: 0:04

Are you ready to break free from hesitation, self-doubt, and isolation? Do you want to lead with confidence, build powerful connections, and live boldly? I'm Cory Baum, and I'm here to share the most impactful strategies and mindsets that I've learned through coaching, leadership, and real-world experience. Together we'll forge unshakable confidence, master social dynamics, and create a life rooted in purpose, brotherhood, and bold action. Inside, you'll get the tools and insights to become the strongest, most connected version of yourself. Let's dive in. Hey, welcome to the Evolve Men podcast. Today I've got on the show Jet Stone. Jet, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_02: 0:42

Great to be here.

SPEAKER_00: 0:44

Hey, that worked out. Good. Hey, so my understanding, what I want to know about you, is that you've you've built a practice and writing around helping men quiet their minds. What what led you personally for you to this work?

SPEAKER_02: 1:01

Well, I would say my work is more than you know about quieting the mind. That was the name of my book. It's you know, the goal for me generally was to build a practice around giving men space to add more life to their inner world, be able to express themselves, be able to open up. It grew into a passion of mine to help men find language for their inner life. And Allah, there was a big need for therapists who work with men, I think, because there was more men coming in to therapy. And so my practice has tried to fill that void. Um, I see a range of different guys. I like to say that the prototypical person I would see is in my clinical practice is someone who, I mean, I'll quote from an email. I is I don't I'm not really that into this therapy thing, but I guess I'll give it a try. Like it's that type of skeptical guy who comes in and is interested in it. Maybe they were nudged in from a partner, a family member, and I want to give them the best possible experience they can get in psychotherapy. I want them to give them a sense that they understand themselves at a deeper level, they can communicate better, and they can live more rich relational lives, meaning better relationships, better friendships, work, whether it's through work or romantic relationships, whatever it is. I saw this need along with all the statistics that we all see out there about men who are struggling. And I wanted to tailor my practice to helping men enrich them lives, enrich their lives through understanding themselves better and understanding their psychology and bettering their relationships.

SPEAKER_00: 2:50

Yeah, absolutely, man. I I think it's so needed now, you know, they say now more than ever, but it's as we were talking before we kind of hit record, I feel that there's so many times where, you know, when I think about it, that the responses that I get from, you know, friends of mine, other men that I come into contact with are kind of these one-word sort of answers, right? Like this, like, hey man, how are you doing? Fine, good. Right. And and I see the the work that you're doing as as probably really helping to expand and open up that that repertoire, that that library of like emotions and feelings and and and what that that landscape looks like.

SPEAKER_02: 3:38

Yes. And psychotherapy itself is built around language and nonverbals too, but it's a it's a talking therapy. So finding language isn't the first thing that you know men how to know how to do when it comes to talking about their personal lives. And so a lot of it is, you're right, sort of reaching and expanding their vocabulary about themselves and who they are and what they need, understanding the ways that they protect themselves and the longings that they have, like all that. We don't learn that as boys, typically. And so sometimes it takes going to therapy to help help find that for yourself. I know it from my own personal experience in therapy, and on the other side of the couch has a therapist.

SPEAKER_00: 4:23

Yeah, definitely. Well, as as we talked about beforehand, I had before today, like I I feel I don't know how many hours I've got into therapy, but there there was at least a few years that I was like, you know, one to two days a week. But I definitely attribute the large majority of my work, or if nothing else, to like really cracking things open to to start to like discover and explore and ask the questions. Like, and it's crazy for me now to think about other friends of mine, you know, and I've had at different times that like I'll invite a man to a men's group, you know, and that's not even like therapy, but inviting a man to a men's group of mine, like, hey man, like you know, we a bunch of bunch a bunch of us guys get together and we talk about blah blah blah, and there's like, nah, man, I'm not I'm not gonna go like share a bunch of my shit with a bunch of guys, like, all right, right, that's cool. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 5:15

So well, yeah, and to that point, I think it's a good example because one of the things that I think about constantly in my practice is how alien in experience a group therapy setting or group men's group doesn't even have to be therapy. How these spaces, men's spaces or individual therapy, couples therapy, whatever it is, how alien it is for men. It's it's unnatural, you know, from the way that we're raised or the way that we're socialized to sit across from someone as as we are now and talk more deeply about who you are and what you want, the struggles you're having. And I think girls are much more likely to be socialized in that way, to talk about their problems, to build rapport over emotional matters. I think that it's it takes a whole paradigm shift and for um a guy to get to that place. And so I never forget how strange it is to sit across from someone and like communicate at that level and to be heard and listened to. Like as a therapist, uh sometimes I recognize how this might be the first time ever that a guy has sat across from another guy in this case, as a male therapist, and been listened to in that way, right? In like in a way that a friend wouldn't, in a way that a parent wouldn't. I mean it's a different enterprise, it's a whole different world. And so I I I never forget the uniqueness of that.

SPEAKER_00: 6:51

Yeah, absolutely. You know, something that comes to mind for me, and we'll we'll see if this is too much, but I I was having a conversation with my dad recently, which is kind of a new thing for me. And we don't have to go down that rabbit hole. But as we were kind of talking, you know, I was kind of sharing with him, I was like, hey, you like I I really want to have a relationship where where we're able to share both the things that are going really well in our lives, but also the things that we're struggling with. And part of what I was sharing with him was like, I don't, I don't have any idea who you are, right? Like I I never I never really got the like the things that you were upset about, the things that you were struggling with. Like, I just I I don't know any of those, right? And so, and I'm fast forwarding through the conversation, right? But at the end of it, he was like, So, like, you mean we could talk about like the things that I'm struggling with? Right. And and you know, he's I don't even know what he is, he's 60, 65 years old or something like that. But it was the first time in my life that we've had that conversation. And to him, he was like, Wow, you mean I I could actually have this conversation with another man, let alone my son?

SPEAKER_02: 8:03

And it was like this moment I was like, Oh, wow, this this is kind of I'm really curious about that because it's a beautiful moment. Why do you think he couldn't? What was what what did you attribute as the reason why he was unable, didn't feel like he was able to or allowed to? What was the what were the pressures or what were the things out there that made it such that he didn't think that was even a possibility?

SPEAKER_00: 8:26

Yeah, yeah. Well, the story that I'm telling myself is that and it's it's the same one that I think a lot of men live even still today, right? But take that back another generation that, you know, masculinity, men don't talk about their problems, right? That that they don't have any problems, that especially when it comes to their son, right? They can't appear weak, they've always got to be in control, they've got to have everything figured out. I mean, the the list can go on indefinitely, but it creates this as I've looked at it, it creates like this shell of a person. And and you can put any person in that place, right? Of my dad, for instance, but it's it's just a shell. And and that's I mean, similarly for myself, like that. That was a lot of the life that I was living as well with my friendships and my connections and things like that, because all the conversations were always like just surface level. I didn't nobody really knew who I was. I was afraid to tell them and I was afraid to dig into their lives, and they were afraid to share with me. And so it it leads to these relationships that are just like they're just surface level shells. And it, you know, sometimes I say it, they're like ships passing each other, like nobody really knows anybody.

SPEAKER_02: 9:43

Yes, yes. And there's so much protection there that even in that example of your dad, like that there was a reason that he's like, Oh, I didn't know that was even on the menu to be able to talk to my son about those types of things. And like as a therapist, it's always I always recognize that there's a longing to be known and to know others in the way of you and your dad. But there are these force fields of protection, these walls that get put up, and they are actually intelligent, which is a different take on it, maybe than you might hear. There's an intelligence to these walls and protective mechanisms we put up. They they can make us appear stronger, they can make us more trusted as leaders in groups of men, right? The stoic sort of uh idea, not necessarily the philosophical stoic, but like kind of the more shut down colloquial version of that term. Like, you know, when you when you when you're not feeling like you're better able to execute a task, right? Emotional restriction, toughness, you know, you know, self-reliance, independence, all these things have value. And so these protective mechanisms, and I don't know if that's what you know your father had, but they served him in some way in other capacities of his life. It's just that it's like misapplied when you think about bringing that into a conversation about your son's difficulties at school or his difficulties in his marriage or like you know, parenting. And so what I think about as a therapist is like, let's let's talk about like putting some honor on those protective, on that wall, right? It was put up, it was a smart move. You probably learned it in boyhood, like I did, in order to survive sometimes, in order to make a mark for yourself, to be to be wanted, to be to be looked at as a reliable person. Sometimes that means shutting down parts of yourself. And as boys, we slowly society does this, and we learn to kind of remove our three-dimensionality, suck the humanity out of us, the humanness of us, in order to survive in a world that is expecting us to be, you know, walled off or shut down or stow it or you know, show strength or toughness. And so it's like once my thinking on it is that once you honor that first, it's like, okay, it worked for you, but guess what? Like, I don't think it is anymore. Let's try something different. And to me, when you told me that story, it just, you know, that's what it brought up for me, just in terms of like therapy and the approach that I try to take more broadly.

SPEAKER_00: 12:30

Yeah, to that point, my, you know, when I think about it, and this is something that I've had to explore for myself lately, like really put myself in kind of that situation. But, you know, knowing a bit about my dad, he's the youngest of four boys, military family, right? Dad often gone off to the war, right? Like, yeah, there was a lot of you know, there was there was a lot of shit that needed to be protected. And so it doesn't surprise me at all when I look at it through that lens of like, absolutely. Like, I'm not surprised at all. But and and I think similarly that that's a lot of that story that a lot of guys are are are living right now. One one of the points that you brought up that I I really appreciate is that you how it sounded like your relationship with that part was more peaceful. Right? Because I I think at times a lot of guys, right, can really jump to this sort of negative relationship with that part of us, right? And still, you know, because it sounded like from your perspective, and that's the way that my mentor has kind of always really shared it with me of like, hey man, like it's like putting your arm around your five-year-old, like, come here, dude, like what's up? Let's talk about this. Like, because to your point, like, dude, this kept you alive, right? Four brothers of a younger, younger one, like, dude, you were not sharing vulnerabilities. None of that shit. That got you actually joining the military. Yeah, yeah. And and so, but but I love that that because what that ends up doing is I feel like it's like the cycle of you know, this this two people that are against each other, right? And and I've heard it before, you know, people talk about it like, oh, I've got to like kill that part of me, you know, like it needs to die. I need I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, dude, like let's, you know, so I I really appreciated that you you frame it from that like friendly sort of thing. Like, hey man, it's it's done you good.

SPEAKER_02: 14:34

And now you're talking about our inner voices, right? Our our inner critics is another way to put it. And in and in a lot of men, not all men, but a lot of them, especially ones I work with, they have some really, really like militant, hard-ass voices that they've internalized in their life, whether it's father figures, coaches, whatever it is, it's like the idea of like men fighting inner battles that other people don't see, you know, quiet desperation. What's going on inside men's minds that we don't get often get a chance to see because a lot of times we're shut down or we don't report it on a self-report measure, right? We have shame around feeling emasculated if we show vulnerability. So we keep it invulnerable, we keep ourselves invulnerable. But what you're saying is that, yeah, man, there are real, like sometimes violent battles going on in our head and self flagellation, right? It's just like that I see in in my work, and that you're right. The way out of that is kind of making peace. Like, I think of odd, it's like self-diplomacy in some way. You know, you're extending an olive branch to a part of yourself. And you know, some people call it self-compassion. There's a lot of I love the way that you phrased it, like about the the inner, the inner boy, right? And there's so many different ways to phrase it, but it's the same sort of thing. It's making peace with the part of you that had to adapt at some point, and you learn this strategy of trying to hold yourself accountable. And that's so much of what overthinking is and what the book that I wrote was about, and then the skills, the skills book that I wrote, was trying to address that, that that worry and that rumination in men is just very, very harsh. And I think becomes externalized, meaning we we we'll drink, we'll drive fast, and then in the most tragic situations, we'll take our own lives. Death by suicide, right? Which you've heard all statistics about. They're disproportionately male. So the consequences of our inner voices and the battles that we have with ourselves are immense at times. And I know and I don't forget that either when I work with men. Like, oh yeah, you you have a facade of fine, but I wonder what's going on upstairs. I know that myself, I I tended to be very, very harsh on myself, much more than I was on other people. People didn't see it. Nice exterior, pleasant person, kind, but I just as a kid really just didn't, you know, didn't always didn't like myself. And and I'd have these inner battles. And so I think part of my work in this space has been helping other guys work through that.

SPEAKER_00: 17:23

Yeah, I think that that is is those those conversations that are that are had to your point are like they're nasty, you know, and and I know just for myself, right? And I I think of it often, and it was put to me way back in the day, and it's always stuck to me. And and I often mention in regards to my kids being a dad, right? But like I would never, never say that sort of stuff to my kids, right? And to think about, and that's kind of a loop anymore of something that I go through when maybe I catch myself having those thoughts of being like, whoa, like I would never say that to you know my younger or my older kids, like right, okay, let's what's what's going on here? Let's dig into that a little bit, you know. Somebody's, you know, as we talked about earlier, like there's probably a story beneath the story here about what's going on. So let's let's dig into that a little bit, you know. So it's it definitely for myself, I have gotten to more of like there's a whole room full of those personalities at any given time, right? And and I'm like socializing around, you know, it's like a it's like a networking event, right? Where we're all trying to make friends.

SPEAKER_02: 18:36

Yes, and there's so many in a in a you know, in a way, there there's a whole core uh sometimes I've heard the I've heard the term like a male chorus, right? Like kind of like the different models of masculinity and and men and and people in your life, the guys in your life that you're gonna like hear from from from time to time that shape you know how you talk to yourself. It's it's it can be healthy to start to identify who some of those voices are. Like, is that my you know, headmaster, you know, back, you know, if was that my is that my dad? Is that my coach? To be honest with you, like I, you know, I grew up in a an environment where I was in like ice hockey locker rooms a lot. And so every once in a while I do catch myself like talking to myself as if I was a hard ass coach, expecting more, expecting more, expecting more, expecting more. So it's good to frame it that way, right? Like who's in that course? Like what what and even visualizing it is healthy, actually. If you want to talk about stress management and managing anxiety, like visualizing that's like, oh, there he goes again. You know, trying to demand more out of me. Different than fighting with yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 20:02

Yeah, well, uh, to your point of like coaches and things like that, right? Like, I, you know, my my wrestling coach in high school, looking back, I wouldn't say that he was a hard ass, but dude, like fucking the the workouts sucked. There was a lot of puking, there was a lot of times I wanted to die. Like, and in the moment, I didn't think the guy was really my best friend or had my best intentions in mind. But I I honestly, interestingly enough, I know him now, and he's the parent of one of my friends. Totally different, totally different guy, right? So looking back, looking at it as like that coach, like he had the best of intentions, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't still, you know, maybe screaming and yelling or whatever it was about working harder or whatever it was. But and so again, it's not that it's bad, right? But that's a person, right? And and they have good intentions, right? And maybe, but maybe their their intentions right now aren't executing or following through, right, the way that's most helpful for you right now at this age of your life. Maybe that was helpful when I was 16, right? But now I'm married with two kids, sort of thing. I'm not not married now, but it's just not helpful anymore. So, like, hey man, I'm I'm glad to have this chat, but it's it's not working so well.

SPEAKER_02: 21:22

Beautiful framing of it. It's outlived its usefulness to you. And that's one of the ways of you know, you can think about it for yourself. It's like it had its time, and now, like, you know, you're you're in a different spot. And that voice, if it's unhelpful now, has overstayed, it's welcome. And you can you can't kick it out necessarily, right? You can't remove remove it because that agenda backfires, it becomes louder. And in a way, and you you can take an approach of like, oh, like of course you're here. That actually, in a paradoxical way, makes it makes that voice become less stronger. When you start to have more of a you can call it welcoming, but like an embracing, like an accepting stance, we call it in psychology. Like, if you accept that, yeah, this is gonna pop up from time to time, but it doesn't have to dominate me. You can name it. Like those are the some of the my favorite tools for working with rumination and worry.

SPEAKER_00: 22:27

Yeah, I love that of of actually giving them a name, right? Like, oh, there's there's Chad again. Like, Chad's he's a funny guy, man. He always comes up at the most inopportune times. But these are the sort of things, like as we talk about it, like to a guy that hasn't had these conversations before, this sounds batshit crazy, right? And and to be like, nah dude, I'm not I'm not fucking naming my voices, like you're crazy. Right. This conversation's over.

SPEAKER_02: 22:56

Well, that's that's fine. I'll I'll take a different tact with a person like that. But what I will say is, you know, a lot of the the guys like that who are such skeptics, they will watch a field goal kicker, you know, in a make or break playoff game walk onto the field and hit a kick and not ask how did that person learn to build the mental stability to do that? And I'll tell them they did what we just talked about. I don't know an athlete who who has to show up in high-stakes moments who doesn't have some type of mental game that they have to put themselves through in order to do the difficult things. And so the people that they admire, that that would be my frame of it. It's like, well, performance psychology and athletes who who learn it would do the same version of this. There's different ways to do it, there's different like styles and approaches, but yeah, like this is this is a tried and truth research-backed way of managing anxiety and overthinking and distress.

SPEAKER_00: 24:02

That's a really good point. One of my one of my favorite sports guys that I follow. I I've been big into CrossFit for a lot of years, had been not so much anymore, but he really, and I'm thinking about Ben Bergeron. I don't know if you know him at all.

SPEAKER_02: 24:17

He I know Patrice Patrice Bergeron, the hockey player, but not Ben Bergeron.

SPEAKER_00: 24:21

No, Ben, so he is a CrossFit coach, right? And he's trained a lot of really like high-end athletes. And and God, it's probably been like eight years ago now, but he really shifted so much of his program, uh, you know, a way of he's like, sure, I I can I can teach you how to like lift heavy and train hard and eat good and things like that. But from my perspective, on the other end of it, he shifted so much of his program around mindsets. Like his programming wasn't just about this is the workout, it's like this is our mindset for the day. Like, you know, the and all of the good things to go about it, that it was it was really polarizing to see from that perspective. Because he was the only one that I knew that so much of his development was like around mindset. I the the the workout is easy. You you can, you know, relatively, right? It's it's the mindset. So yeah, that's a really good point. That looking at it from that perspective as a strength.

unknown: 25:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 25:22

And that's something that I I really try to convey with men at times of just knowing that it's there and having those conversations really truly is a strength.

SPEAKER_02: 25:35

Yes, and it's expecting that it's gonna show up and not being surprised each time that it does that inner voice who's telling you you can't, or the not good enough story. If you know, if you can expect that it's gonna be a you know, a guest showing up, you know, you it's it then becomes easier to to deal with and and manage. And and you know, one of the things you're talking about with this CrossFit coach and mindsets is that one of the things that a lot of mindset coaches and performance psychologists, maybe yourself as a coach, it's like encouraging this uh challenge versus threat mindset in psychology. It's like reappraising, reappraisal of a thing that's happening from oh, you know, this thing, if if I don't hit, you know, if I don't, if it's crossfit, like you know, if I don't make, if I don't lift this or if I can't make the time or whatever it is, then I'm going to, you know, get third place instead of second place, instead of saying, like, oh, this is a chance for me to try and outdo myself from the previous you know competition that I was in. Like, how can you frame it as like a cool challenge that you're taking on here? Like, how cool is this? I get a chance to come to compete in front of other people. I get a chance to go on Corey's podcast and share some of the things I know, as opposed to, oh my gosh, what if I show up and fuck it all up? Right. It's just it's not positive thinking, actually. That's an oversimplification of it. It's different than something.

SPEAKER_00: 27:10

Yeah, that whole like positive psychology sort of thing. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 27:13

Well, it's it's it's it's positive, but it's more than positive thinking. It's it's turning something into a challenge, and it's really empowering. And by the way, the research also backs all that up, too. But it's it's so intuitive when you make it a practice, and athletes do. Athletes are a great example of that.

SPEAKER_00: 27:33

Well, and that's a really good point. And we we don't I feel like I've said that a lot. You have a lot of really good points, Jet. I gotta find a new term to use. But just that that whole bit around we've we've spent so much time really focused and you know, I think in therapy, and and rightfully so, there's a lot of things to work on, but we've spent so much time pulling people out of the darkness that we that there hasn't been a lot of focus on getting people to the other side of the sort of things, and to the point of like, you know, okay, well, of reframing those sort of things. They're like, oh God, this always happens, to flipping it to the other side of things to be like, hey, this is how can I make this a positive experience? Because I get to choose all of these, right? At every opportunity, I can either I can love it or I can hate it, and it's gonna happen regardless. And so, you know, really following that framework of how, you know, there's the the situation or the behavior or whatever it is, how it, you know, our thoughts change everything from that point downstream.

SPEAKER_01: 28:41

It's true.

SPEAKER_00: 28:42

How how do you feel like so you know, with a lot of these sort of things and these thoughts that are going on in men's heads and these conversations that aren't being had, like, where does that energy go? Right? And and I'm thinking like the nervous system, the psyche, like what's what's happening?

SPEAKER_02: 29:02

Well, in men, bec especially those who who don't have strong relationships and feel like they can put that inner angst into language. As we say in therapy, like naming is taming. It's it's not the only way to tame, but it is one way. And research does show that that having an emotional vocabulary leads to so many great outcomes, right? But it also helps you manage stress. It kind of makes the vague more grounded and clear. And so what can often happen is that that energy that you're talking about gets in men gets what we call externalized, meaning that we may not call it worry, we may not feel you know sad and call ourselves depressed. We transfer that out, meaning that it looks like drinking more, driving faster, watching more porn, being more generally loud and aggressive and demanding, and you know, right? It's it's it's externalized. And so that's one of the ways that men in unhelpful ways channel it. It becomes a go-to. Um, it's a little different with women, they they they still do that, but yeah, it it gets more likely to be internalized, as we say, for for women. And so when we talk about depression and anxiety, it's not always caught in the measures of depression and anxiety because it looks different. We're more likely to ball it, ball it all up, and then if we do have to like, you know, it's like pushing a beach ball in water, and when it does come out, we can wreak havoc, it can be destructive.

unknown: 30:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 30:49

There's so many different ways that that could come across in the realm of parenting and work and everyday life.

SPEAKER_00: 30:58

Yeah, I I had a friend of mine describe it to me recently, and it's really stuck with me as basically a bottle. And and this conversation keeps coming up. It's funny, but basically that of that being a bottle, right? And inside that sort of thing, like things have been in there for years and fermenting and all of that sort of stuff. And that if you're not in some way doing something to modulate the pressure in there, right? Whether it's cooling it, releasing it somehow, maybe you got a valve on it. You've you've upgraded your bottle, you've got a valve on there now that if you don't, like it comes out in this explosion, right? It just erupts and it shoots everywhere, right? And even when you like start to take it off, like, okay, I know that there's a lot of pressure in here, I'm gonna do it slowly, and it still just like blows up and it's all over the place. Like, ah shit, there I'm in again, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 31:50

Yeah, I love I love those metaphors. And there is a a man named Jason Wilson, you may have come across him social media. He's also a brilliant dude. He's a men's uh he does a lot of men's work, he works with boys and he's been a lot of podcasts. He said, you know, sometimes men cry in all the wrong ways. It's like saying, as opposed to being pure in the sadness that that they feel and sharing that and articulating that they're crying out in the world in all these different externalized ways. So instead of crying, they're maybe it's violence, maybe it's addiction. And I just thought that was a really nice way of framing it.

SPEAKER_00: 32:42

Definitely, yeah. No, as we were talking about earlier with kids as well, like what's the what's the story behind the story, right? It's not always as it sees or as we see at the surface, you know, and it it brings to mind for me like myself at times and other men that I know of this story, right? Of like they're like, like, I just can't cry, right? Like I I I want to sit there. I like I went out to this place and I wanted to do it, and nothing happened. Well, and it sounds like kind of maybe to your point that it's it's not that it's not happening, and and that was kind of the the point of all of this is like how it's showing up in the nervous system and and in other ways that these things are happening, right? Just because that it's not you're not crying, it's not that it's not happening. That's not that it's not affecting you.

SPEAKER_02: 33:35

That's right. And crying is I don't know, I've thought a lot about that because I've had my own relationship with tears and and you know, fears around showing that part of me and you know, holding back tears in front of my wife or my kids. Like, you know, I can give you a number of stories about that. And and I've, you know, and when I'm working with men in in therapy, I think there is kind of some expectation that they're like supposed to show up and just start crying, like that's the ultimate form of vulnerability, right? It's the you know, the quintessential way to show that you're actually deeply feeling. And it is one really solid way to know that you're feeling deeply. I'm not gonna lie, but it's not the only, right? And there are some men who just will not, cannot break down those barriers. And it's so it's so difficult because I think sometimes they want to. I did a lot of trauma work in the VA system, you know, and I know that there are some that you get to that place and you're just it's it's a wonderful thing for them. And then there are some that don't, and that's okay. I don't try trying to try to put pressure on the last thing we need is more pressure, right? Exactly. You're you nailed it.

SPEAKER_00: 34:53

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'd like to touch on a little bit, you know, and we've we've bounced around it, but this idea of these thoughts that come and go, right? That well, come and go, but for the ones that don't go, right? And and and kind of discerning, you know, like how do you help men distinguish between like reflection, right, and and taking the time to kind of think about something, and then when those thoughts don't go away and they become rumination?

SPEAKER_02: 35:29

Is answering that question matters a lot because overthinking is like a term we can throw out there, you can overthink your tennis serve, you can then you can also overthink, you know, something much overthink a trauma, right? So problem solving reflection, like you just said, there's some there's something productive about it. It's moving you forward. You're seeing things from new angles, you're making progress, you're on a bike that's moving. Overthinking, which I'll define more, is like you're on a bike, but it's like not moving, and you're not getting exercise out of it. It's stationary. Oh, sorry, you're you're moving. If you're not really getting exercise on it, it's stationary. So over so let me go back and kind of explain what overthinking is and why. I I think it's really interesting and maybe good for listeners to hear. So in academic psychology, we call it repetitive negative thinking, RT. It's just a fancy way of saying overthinking. And basically, what it is, it's some combination of worry, which is much more future focused, and rumination, which is more past-focused. And then you know they weave together and there's some combination. And when you pull back, when you're in worry mode or rumination mode, you're in thinking that's overstayed its welcome to use that phrase again, and outlived its usefulness. Meaning that you're not producing something, you're not making better decisions from it. You're doing thinking that's actually backfiring as opposed to forward firing. One way to think about am I in this mode of repetitive negative thinking, overthinking, is that is it unwanted? Yeah, I don't want to be thinking about this right now. I don't want to be rehashing that conversation that I had with that person. I look like such an idiot. Is it unproductive? I always ask my clients that question. Like, I say, like, do you feel like as it was productive, that rehashing of that event? And sometimes genuinely like, yeah, I think it was. And sometimes like, no, right. So it's unwanted, unproductive, and unrelenting, right? Is you you can't get it to stop necessarily.

SPEAKER_00: 37:46

It just sounds horrible.

SPEAKER_02: 37:48

Yeah, it sucks. And so over overthinking isn't an emotion, it's like it's cognitive activity. Emotions are like, you know, anxiety, um, sadness, fear, embarrassment, shame, guilt, and all those can come from overthinking. So think of it like this is that worried thoughts tend to focus on the unclear future, right? Uncertainty. Hmm, what could be going on? Let me try to figure that out. Ruminative ones, rumination, it's like passive dwelling on past events and unpleasant pleasant feelings or per or perceived past letdowns that you've had. And worrying worry asks over and over and over and over and over what if, what if this, what if this, what if this? And it kind of views events as being controllable if you just apply more thinking, right?

SPEAKER_00: 38:41

Yeah, I can solve it. I just need a few more calculations, a little bit longer. Exactly. And I'm saying this to somebody that struggles with it at times. I'm like, oh yeah, no, I know exactly what you're talking about. Yes, yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_02: 38:52

And then and then you rumination is why. So worries, what if rumination is why? So it's seeing events in the past, oftentimes. Oh, it's uncontrollable. Now I said that thing to that person. I didn't mean it that way. It's like, and then you're kind of getting dragged into it. Yeah, I'm like, I'm just bad at like social things, I'm bad at I'm just and so you're you're dragging yourself deeper into how bad you are, how depressed you are. And so sometimes you can go from rumination, let's say, and say, Oh, I'm so bad at you know, new conversations and networking, and then I'm so anxious about this networking event that I have to go to because I'm no good at that. Do you see how it goes? It's time traveling.

unknown: 39:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 39:36

And that's why that's why the antidote to that, the way to work with it is by grounding. That's my mindfulness, because it's it's it's focused on being where you are right now, which is why it's a brilliant intervention for it. So that's the backstory. So if if you're doing reflection, it's gonna And you maybe somewhere new. Problem solving, somewhere new. But repetitive negative thinking is by definition negative and unproductive. It's trying to continually apply more language to language. It's like, let me try to deal with my own. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 40:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 40:22

I'll pause there.

SPEAKER_00: 40:23

Yeah, no, there's there's so much there. I mean, I what do you feel like? And I I want to make sure that we we kind of wrap it up at the end of this with not not necessarily wrap this up, but I I want to make sure because the right at the front of my mind, I'm like, well, how do we fix it? Because this sounds horrible. But I'm curious, what what are some of the common loops that you find that that men find themselves in? I mean, I know I know mine, but what are some of the other ones?

SPEAKER_02: 40:50

Yeah. Well, I I'll there's there isn't a ton of research on gender differences in repetitive negative thinking. There is some work on it. So I'll start with I do know the work this this woman, Susan Hoaxima. She was she wrote a book about uh women in overthinking. And like a lot of it was, you know, I'll start with women then I'll turn to men. It's like on physical appearance, body image, relationship with friends, being safe or personal problems that they have in relationships, daily stuff, being liked, or some just things that pop into my head. And then when it comes to boys and men, it's more on the themes of like competence, performance, neededness, freedom, preserving their sense of autonomy, the rules, right?

SPEAKER_00: 41:42

Like the rules, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 41:44

Yeah, establishing some type of order. I work with men who overthink, like it doesn't make sense at all what my you know girlfriend is saying. I don't get why she had that outsized response to it. Like it's they're seeing chaos and they're like, you know, trying to establish order in the chaos. So that's a little bit of a flavor. I mean, in clinical work, you see it in like you know, or I'll say in everyday life, and you can overthink cheese at a checkout aisle, right? Choosing between a winter jacket. But then there's also big choices that you could have decision paralysis over, like should we move from our apartment to a house? Should we move from here to there? Like those are big things.

SPEAKER_00: 42:34

Should I well, and those those would be things that people would often say, Ray, like, I when does it go from reflection to sort of rumination? And it's kind of like is this helpful or harmful? Are we making progress along a path?

SPEAKER_02: 42:48

Yes. It's a good question to ask yourself if you know the definition of overthinking, which I hope there's something came out of that where people could latch on to another definition. It's like, am I needing dough over and over and over and over and over, or am I turning that dough into a beautiful piece of the uh baking, baking goods or whatever? Sourdough. Can we call it sourdough? There we go. Sourdough. So that's that's just a metaphor for it. So if like if you're overthinking, you know, one of the classic examples that I've heard with overthinking is you see your boss walk into the office with a bunch of people on your team and you're not in that meeting, but you see the door close, right? Yeah, cue overthinking. Now, the first five minutes of that, I'd be like, hmm, I wonder what they're doing. Is it about this or about that? But soon you can just tell that you're wallowing in you know, rumination. Oh well, maybe and maybe it was because I said that thing to in the past, or maybe it was because last performance review I didn't do so well or mind, and then it's worry. Oh no, I don't, I think I might be getting fired. Right? If you're starting to time travel and you're really not making any progress, and the other good thing to focus on is physical manifestation of it. That for men, what I'm talking about is they can define, they may be able to define overthinking, but they'll know it in their bodies. They'll feel their heart rate, their nervous system will kick up. Meaning heart rate, clammy hands, whatever it is for them, flushed face or tenseness, inability to sit still in the chair. That's also a good first sign to ask yourself, hmm, I might be in a mode of overthinking that's really uh like unhelpful for me right now. I'm like, again, that's okay. We all most of us overthink, by the way, at some point. And we go into worry and rumination mode. Now the question is what should one do when they see their boss and they know they're in overthinking mode? And I don't know if you want me to go down that road, but yeah, yeah, no, definitely.

SPEAKER_00: 45:00

I uh yeah, no, exactly. I think that's where it was headed. Okay. Where do they go next?

SPEAKER_02: 45:07

I would say uh I would say the first thing is to regulate your body, meaning learn a breathing practice. In my book, I talk about you know a quick and dirty breathing practice called a cyclic si. But there's there's box breathing, there's people who have mindfulness practices. You don't have to sit on, you know, you don't have to be a yogi who meditates for half an hour. Teach yourself to breathe, scan your body, let yourself have whatever thoughts you're having. They can pass, that's okay. Then sometimes sitting still, meaning being sedentary, triggers more overthinking. And there's nothing like getting up and moving. I know it's oversimplified. I mean, you want some sort of better.

SPEAKER_00: 45:56

I can give you some up. I can give you like no, that's Jet, that's way too easy. I need the really expensive, complicated thing.

SPEAKER_02: 46:02

No, but it's hard for people to do because it feels unproductive. And when we're in overthinking mode, we want to be productive. And so if I sit in front of my screen more or if I, you know, um repass, read more emails for my boss about what he could be doing in that office, I'll I'll figure something out. It's like you'll if you keep digging, maybe you'll get the right insight. But that's a myth. And that's what I'm saying. If you get up and you go for a walk and you breathe, that's oftentimes a very good way to go. Now, the other thing I will say is once you've regulated your body, it's then easier to then reframe and you know, do some of the things we were talking about before. So targeting the bodies first, I think, is a really good way for men to go because then it can help slow your nervous system, get you out of flight, fight freeze mode and into, you know, more turn on your frontal lobe thinking. And and so that's one thing. You know, the the the other is that it's good to know what your overthinking triggers are. Like what are your pain points? Like you map that a little bit for yourself and do some of that self-work to say, you know what? A lot of the time, like when I'm overthinking, it has to do with you know performance or being on time. And then I typically then go to feeling like really stupid, or or for some people, it's always about you know finances. And I I tend to go into this comparison mode with other people and how they're handling and what they have and what I don't like. Learn about yourself, map it, and then name it and say, you know what? Once you name it and see it as opposed to just living out from it, then you have some space to make other decisions to go for that walk, to let it pass. Those are just some of the tools. That's really good. 24 in my book.

SPEAKER_00: 48:02

24 of them, okay. Yeah. And I've got to I don't want to fire hose you.

SPEAKER_02: 48:05

Yeah, I don't want to fire hose. Some critique of the book are it's a fire hose. But my the point is I want people to read it and say, okay, well, this one works for me. Yeah, this one sucks. Or I could see myself doing this, or it's I'm it's intended to be experimental, meaning that you go through and you say, you know what? I want to put this, I want to put this in my bag, my shopping bag. I'm not gonna lie, that one doesn't feel right to me.

SPEAKER_00: 48:25

That's silly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 48:27

There's mindfulness practice, there's stress management practices, there's time management stuff. So those are just a like a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00: 48:33

Well, it sounds like it sounds like you know, one of the things I really took away from that is about what you were saying about time traveling as kind of this like along with the somatic sort of like body feelings and and and whatnot. But just that, like, hey, am I thinking about something in the future? Am I thinking about something in the past? It's probably not a good place, like the alerts, the alarms should kind of go off, sort of thing. Yes. And and I've found that time and time again for myself of just how how clear that is when I think about that, right? That how those two things go together, be it anxiety, overthinking, rumination, that I'm worried about what somebody else is going to think about a conversation that we haven't had yet. Right. And so it's like, okay, this is dangerous territory. I know that I'm susceptible to this. And so, kind of to your point, it sounds like, you know, in recognizing those triggers, but it sounds like you're trying to create space to to recognize that, right? And and this all happens in like nanoseconds, right? But the more the more time that we can create in between that trigger and our response, right, gives us an opportunity to maybe start reacting differently to it.

SPEAKER_02: 49:55

Yes. And experiment. It starts with experimentation. There's no every person is so unique, it's so idiosyncratic, the things that work for them, the tools that they can use, the strategies they can use to manage anxiety and depression, that it's good to experiment. That's what I'll really put that out there. That, you know, I've heard it framed as like if you go to the gym, Corey, you're a CrossFit guy. I I'm not. And but we both decide let's we want to work on our cardiovascular health. You walk into the gym, and maybe you choose a treadmill. I walk into the gym, I'm choosing a bike. Right? It's it's like that in terms of tool we use for ourselves. It's like we have different predilections towards things, and so it's good to have choice. And oh, that lands with me, that doesn't land with you know, another person goes on a rowing machine. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 50:58

Yeah. Well, and that's to your point, like, hey, maybe that guy was a rower in college, you know, and had a bad experience and track and was like, dude, I hate running, I don't do that. But hey, we've got an assault bike, we've got a rower, and we've got a treadmill, you know. You can you can choose what it is. And so to your point, of you know, everybody's looking at these sort of tools as through their own lens, right? About what really lands for them. And and I think your point, a lot of it is of just of exploring that and figuring out what what works for you. The other thing that I that I wanted to bring up too is that I feel like men, and I've heard it said time and time again of how how men probably recognize it more often in their body first before they recognize the emotions. That's right. Sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02: 51:53

It is it's a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00: 51:57

Or I I think with that that it it happens in the body first, sort of thing. So in looking at like, oh well, how can I catch this sooner? As you pointed out, like recognizing the the tingles, the faster heartbeat, the sweating, the clenched fists.

SPEAKER_02: 52:16

Mm-hmm. Yeah, recognizing it and recognize the clenched fist and then breathing and unclenching it. And sometimes you can clench it back and then unlike these are all tools where if you feel tension in your shoulders, like tense them up and then release them. But you're right, that's often the first place. If you ask someone, how do you know you're anxious? How did you even know you're anxious? Sounds like a dumb question, because of course I know I'm anxious. No, but if you slow it down, mostly they say, Well, it's because I got like a sinking feeling in my gut. It's because, you know, my my hands got clammy. It's usually it's usually the physical sign that alerts them. And then because our bodies and our minds are in such constant conversation with each other that your mind, your brain then interprets the clammy hands as danger, and then you get clammier hands and your heart starts racing more, and blood starts rushing to your extremities, and then your brain's like even more danger, and then you start this cycle. And so that's why if you target the body sometimes, it can slow down the mental, physical loop.

SPEAKER_01: 53:24

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 53:25

In recognizing those, I one of the ones I notice at times for myself, and I and I've had this conversation recently as well with a friend that we were kind of sharing some of our different things that we recognize, like, oh, that's yeah, that's a good one. But I'll get at different times like almost like a twitch in my eye. Right. And it's like, oh, all right, there's there's something going on there. I gotta follow that a little bit.

SPEAKER_02: 53:48

That's a that's a good one. No, know yourself because it's like those little idiosyncrasies are very helpful to catch them and be like, oh, but but when you catch them, I like the way you said it because you're like, oh, there it is. You kind of smiled, and like you were kind of you were kind to yourself. You were like being a good good guy to yourself. You weren't saying, Oh, I cannot master this anxiety thing. I can't believe this is happening again. It's different than saying, Oh, there it is again. Hmm. It's like a it's an of course or a curious stance towards it as opposed to a hard ass, like so many, so many people are.

SPEAKER_00: 54:30

Why do you think that, and you know, I said it earlier, and I'll say it again. Like, I I really appreciate that perspective of it. Why do you think I don't know what what are your thoughts on how because a lot of people will be super hard on it, and it's like that wrestling coach, right? It's like, oh, this is the only way to do it. It's gotta hurt and it's gotta be painful, it's gotta be loud and aggressive. Like, why do you think that that kind of approach is helpful in having those conversations with ourselves?

SPEAKER_02: 54:59

Because it flies in the face of how many of us would naturally talk to ourselves in a very harsh way. Meaning that if you've internalized the voice of a mean wrestling coach, and I know that wrestling coach wasn't actually mean, but like if you've internalized, you've sort of swallowed that in, then replaying that isn't moving the needle in terms of helping you live more free. Because when you when you're when you're anxious and that voice of that mean wrestling coach, it's like having a hand in your face like this, right? It it's it interferes with relationships and your ability to talk and see things clearly and hear clearly. And so the more you can take a different stance on that mean wrestling coach who's yelling at you to do better and do more and play through pain, it's like the more this hand starts to move away from your face. And you might not be able to get rid of that voice altogether, right? It's there, you can't get rid of your hand, but at least it's got some distance, and you can then carry on and have good relationships and be able to talk and connect. And so I think of it like that. That it's a it being sometimes playful with yourself or creative, creativity plays a big role in this, being lighter, more accepting helps make that voice softer and less dictatorial, like less like a dictator. And you're turning on other radio stations, and it's not just the one voice.

SPEAKER_01: 56:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 56:39

So that's my interpretation of it. Yeah, I know. That's it.

SPEAKER_00: 56:45

You know, as you were saying that something that I was thinking about was just how in those times that it's negative, right? That I imagine that there's a lot of other things that are happening in our body. Right. If we were to switch that same conversation from negative, where there's probably, and I'm gonna mess up the technical terms, but there's probably a lot of like cortisol and stress hormones and a lot of things that are going on while you're battling basically with that demon, versus the like putting your arms around him, being like, whoa, dude, let's uh what's going on? Like there he is again. That I physiologically, I imagine there's an entirely different landscape in those two conversations. And we can either live from a place, and and this is the what I was thinking is you were saying this, but so we can either live from this place of like these more harmful chemicals being flushed throughout our bodies, or some positive ones.

SPEAKER_02: 57:43

Absolutely. And and uh someone who knows more about biology than either of us will tell tell you that there's a different physiology to putting your arm around that boy versus you know wagging your finger and yelling at him. There really is. And I and you know, there's ways of studying that. And people have studied that. I can't point you to the exact study, but my gosh, they're out there. Like there's biofeedback that you can do. You can set people up with monitors and heart rate monitors and skin conductance, and you can walk them through meditations, you can see the changes in in them when you take them, when you do like mindfulness exercises with with them. It's it's quite remarkable.

SPEAKER_00: 58:26

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, hey, man, as we start to to kind of wrap up here, I'd I'm curious to to know a little bit, like, where do you see the the landscape for men right now, right? What is it that gives you hope and in the direction that things that are going?

SPEAKER_02: 58:48

Well, we're I don't say when I say we, it's hard for me to speak on behalf of all men. But just generally speaking, that we're in a period of fog. I mean that like even like fathers who are balancing, you know, legacies of their own dads and the expectation of being more present. I mean that in terms of young guys out there who are searching for relationships or who are, you know, online in the manosphere, and you know, their parents are worried about them. I'm I'm speaking very broadly here to them and and others and saying that we're all in a sense of confusion and fog and trying to answer the question what does it mean to be a man and what are the new scripts of masculinity that make sense. We're we're men are searching for a a code, a masculine code. They want they don't they they don't want to, in my sense, like just like be more like your smart sister. They don't that's not enough. They want some answers, and that's totally valid. What gives me hope is that women have spent half a century or more tackling what it means to. Be a woman. They have written endless books. There are sections in libraries that they could fill the whole library with feminist authors and ideas, and how do we balance motherhood and working and what does it mean to be a mom and controversial takes, ridiculous takes, and brilliant takes and everything. And that was many decades. And I think for guys, for men, when we talk about masculinity, and now I think that we're starting to have more of a conversation like that. Even just you and me right here is one small drop in the bigger bucket. And that what gives me hope is that we, like women who are ascending when it comes to presence in the workforce and positions of power and you know economic independence, like they've made a lot of great gains, and by all means is not done. But like we're just starting that intellectual, emotional process of figuring out what it looks like to be a man in 2025, 2026, and decades beyond. So it's like, yeah, you got to go through a period of fog before you get to clarity. That's just like how change to me happens. And so I'm not feeling like we need to rush and we need to find someone who has the right answer and then lock in on that. Like we're all doing the work here, we're all in the figuring out process. And my guess is that when we talk again in 10, 20 years and we're grayer and and and bolder. Maybe I won't say that. Maybe I'll say, look, this has really worked. This is, I think the path will become going from towards a more relationally rich life. I think there's somewhere you know, vaguely in that territory where men are learning to be in more meaningful relationships. I think that's where the it's headed, in what ways and how, and the groups that are formed, and the communities and the public policies, that will all remain to be seen. But I think it's going from solitude and aloneness and self-reliance and toughing it out to embracing the role of relationships. And I think that's part of the answer. And it's hard to articulate exactly how. But so that's what gives me some hope.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:23

Yeah. That's great, man. I I too like you. I I really think that to your point of of men in some way, and man, I would I would love I'd love to have the conversation for another two or three hours. There's so many things to pull out here, but I think that coming together with this, you know, to your point with women, right? Of having done the work, right, and and navigated that timeline and coming together, right? I mean, it's it's no surprise, right, that women or that men will be like, oh, women and women's groups, and they're all chatty, sharing their emotions, right? And then, you know, looking at the direction of of men, like, man, maybe they were onto something. This having those connections, having those conversations, right? I think it's a real necessary part of the evolution that of coming back together. And that's not like the way that I it's not like becoming women, right? To your point, it is really like differentiating for ourselves what it is to be a you know, an evolved man sort of thing. There you go. It's not like old sort of masculinity, it's not where maybe things are at times right now with masculinity. It's like this this like homeostasis, this coming together. And and that's so individual for each person as well, right? That's not that's not there's no, I don't know Maybe someday there'll be a definition of like, you know, there's a statue, and like, oh, that's masculinity. But I think that there is each person writes their own script, right? Of taking these things from there, these things for the future, and what really kind of feels right for them, but but for us getting back to that, you know, and one of the thoughts that I've I've had recently, and it's come up again over and over, is is really around like how controversial that thought kind of is. Right? If if a man was to say, like, you know, like like I had the thought the other day of of a group calling it men rising. Men rising, like that's controversial, of just like stepping up or uh in opposition or any of this sort of thing. And so just how there's this, I feel like there can be and I guess kind of as a man that there can be like this this pressure from the other side of like don't do that, because then you're you're that opposite side of right, you know. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:07

Like I I I know I know what you're talking about doing being in the space that sometimes it feels like you have to tiptoe because you don't want to come across as somebody who's you know crass and misogynistic and and like because it's not. But I I you know, as it's been said many times before, we can do two things at once, you know, we can elevate women while also trying to elevate men to build on the on the men rising, imagine right. Like those two things can have the same time. We can we can do those, they're not opposing, yeah, they're not opposing things, and so you have to I I have that belief that that conversation is starting to shift now, like there's more of an openness and a curiosity around how can we help men out there? And you're hearing that from all sides of the spectrum. So I think that is changing, but you're right, it still exists, there's still some cautiousness around it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:02

Yeah, definitely, definitely. Well, hey, Jen, I've loved this conversation. It's it's been fascinating. How how can the men that are listening learn more about you and the the work that you're doing, connect and so on?

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:15

This is a great conversation, Corey. It was a lot of fun. So I'm on Instagram at Dr. Jett Stone, D-R-J-E-T-C-S-T-O-N-E. I have started an organization with my friend colleague out in the UK, his name's Chris Hemmings. It's called the the Men's Therapy Hub. It's men's therapyhub.com, www.men's therapyhub.com. It's launched in the UK, will launch in the US next year. Um so that's an endeavor that we're doing to just build out a space for male therapists, community, and to help people who are looking for therapists find more male therapists. So I'll plug that. And you can find me at my website, jetstoneph.com. And you can search me on Google and see some of my writing in psychology today and some other places. And I think those are the best ways.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:17

Okay. Great. Well, hey, man, like I said, appreciate it all. Appreciate you being here, appreciate the work that you're doing out there, and yeah, I enjoyed it all.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:26

Well, I appreciate you, and thanks for having me on.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:29

Hey, before you go, this podcast is just the surface. The real work happens inside the Evolve Men Brotherhood. This is our private community of men committed to leading themselves boldly, building confidence, and sharpening one another in the fire. Registration officially opens December 1st, and we kick off our Brotherhood calls together beginning in January 2026. But you can get on the list today and be the first to claim your spot. If you're tired of going to life alone and you're ready for true accountability, support, and connection with men who get it, head to Evolvmen Project.comslash Brotherhood. Don't just listen, step into the Brotherhood. I'll see you inside.