SPEAKER_00: 0:04

Are you ready to break free from hesitation, self-doubt, and isolation? Do you want to lead with confidence, build powerful connections, and live boldly? I'm Corey Baum, and I'm here to share the most impactful strategies and mindsets that I've learned through coaching, leadership, and real-world experience. Together, we'll forge unshakable confidence, master social dynamics, and create a life rooted in purpose, brotherhood, and bold action. Inside, you'll get the tools and insights to become the strongest, most connected version of yourself. Let's dive in. Hey, welcome back to the Evolve Men Podcast. Today I'm joined by someone whose work speaks directly to the heart of what we do here at the Evolve Men Podcast. Kimberly Brown is a meditation teacher, author, and guide who helps people cultivate self-compassion, emotional clarity, and deeper relationships, not through perfection or pressure, but through gentleness, presence, and genuine human connection. She teaches traditional Buddhist practices in a way that's grounded, accessible, and deeply relevant for the modern world. And her books on self-compassion and emotional regulation, grief, and relationships have helped thousands of people reconnect to themselves in a kinder, more honest way. You know, what really struck me about Kimberly is her understanding of men, especially the silent pressure that so many of us feel to hold everything together, to stay strong, to never show weakness, to constantly push ourselves to be better. She sees how that grind leads to burnout, isolation, numbing behaviors, and a brutal inner critic that never seems satisfied. So today we're going to talk about a different path, a path of strength through self-accept acceptance, power through vulnerability, and clarity through compassion. Kimberly has helped countless people, especially men, break out of the patterns of shame and self-judgment. And today she's here to share that work with all of us. Hey, welcome, Kimberly. Glad to have you.

SPEAKER_01: 2:20

Thank you, Corey. I'm really glad to be here.

SPEAKER_00: 2:25

So I'm I'm curious, Kimberly. For the men that are listening who might be new to your work, how do you describe what you do?

SPEAKER_01: 2:37

Well, what I do is I use tools of meditation to help people cultivate self-kindness, to help people cultivate insight, and to help all of us develop the qualities we already have that are usually hidden from us or often are hidden from us. Those qualities are compassion and wisdom and joy. And so the way I help people do this, I have that in quotes, is because it's not through words, it's really through self-understanding and using certain simple meditations that help us rewire all of our conditioning and our old patterns that maybe aren't serving us very well right now.

SPEAKER_00: 3:35

How is it? What is it that drew you into this kind of work?

SPEAKER_01: 3:42

I trained to be a psychotherapist. This was a long time ago, maybe 20 years ago, close to it. And in that training, which I did, it was a like a five or six year program, you know, many hours to be licensed. And I in the fourth year of it, I quit because I just didn't feel that I didn't feel that there was something wrong with people. If you become a psychotherapist, you will have to diagnose people. Now, I am not at all criticizing psychotherapy because it has really helped me. And I've had some amazing therapists. And for me, I didn't feel there was something, you know, wrong with me or you or anyone else. I just felt like, well, we all have these struggles. And so that wasn't the way for me. And within a few years, I wasn't sure where I was going to go with my life. I was working in human resources and I started to have panic attacks. And Corey, I could tell you exactly why I had them. I had plenty of therapy myself, and I had a really chaotic childhood, and there were real reasons why I was having panic attacks. And I didn't have any tools. None. So that led me into meditation. And I live in New York City, where very luckily there are many mindfulness centers and lots of Buddhist teachers, and they have a lot of knowledge of how one can approach your mind and your emotions with tools. So that's what led me into these practices. And it really helped me with panic attacks. They didn't disappear, but my relationship to them really changed. You know, rather than like white knuckling through it and just wishing it would go away, it was like more of a oh, this is so painful. Oh, can I get closer to this painful experience? It's not gonna last forever, but I'm here for me. And that opening was really, it was a sort of transformative moment that not only could I understand myself, as I had learned with traditional modern psychotherapeutic and psychological tools, I could also now care for myself and my mind and my heart with real wisdom and strength. I was practicing with Tibetan teachers at first, who were amazing. And then my mom died. And I really, my mind was very unsteady. I couldn't really do a lot of those practices. So I went on a retreat, a week-long retreat in Massachusetts at a place called the Insight Meditation Society with a person named Sharon Salzberg, who became my main teacher and continues to be. And her main practice is loving kindness meditation. It's a practice of using certain phrases of wisdom and kindness and offering them in a sort of mantra-like way to oneself and others. And this practice for me really steadied my mind. And it really allowed me to soften enough so that I could really be present for myself. Within a year or two of that, I did some training to be a meditation teacher, and I started teaching the same practices that I use, the same tools. And it's been so gratifying and also amazing to see other people, you know, use these very simple tools to start to reconnect with themselves.

SPEAKER_00: 7:55

Yeah, that's that's so profound that those some of those sort of things that it's can you hear me okay?

SPEAKER_01: 8:05

I can. Can you hear me?

SPEAKER_00: 8:06

Okay. Yeah. Okay. You had a look on your face. That was like I did.

SPEAKER_01: 8:10

I yes. Sorry.

SPEAKER_00: 8:13

Anyways, but those those sort of things, you know, it it a lot of what I'm hearing from you is that it's it's not necessarily like a magic pill, that it's it's a journey, that these th these things don't necessarily just go away, that it's it's really the the beginnings of a relationship, right? And maybe it's rebuilding a relationship, or maybe it's starting the relate relationship for the first time for some people.

SPEAKER_01: 8:39

And well said, Corey, yes.

SPEAKER_00: 8:42

Okay, yeah. That's that's interesting. I'm I'm fascinated to get into it. So I have I have so many questions, but we'll we'll just we'll kind of keep going through it. So so part of your story mentions that that you're a relatable guide, right, to to emotional healing and and modern and modern life through like Buddhist practices, right? So was there a moment for you like personally when these sort of things like and it sounds like it's been quite a journey for you, but something that transformed in your own life?

SPEAKER_01: 9:17

Yeah. I mean I used to for many years, I mean, many years till I was in my late 30s and I started to come to these practices. The way I related to myself, Corey, every day was something like, Kim, you're not working hard enough. Kim, why you've done so much work. How come you still feel upset today? Lots of comparison. Oh, you're such a loser compared to so-and-so. These were the voices that went through my head in a very predictable way, and also in a very familiar way. I mean, Corey, I didn't really even think, oh, that should change. I just thought, well, that's the way it is, those are my thoughts, and that's how I operate in the world, you know. And it wasn't until I came to these practices that I realized I could relate very differently to myself. So, for example, you know, this happened recently. I I burned something in the oven, smoke was pouring out of it. I was very frustrated with myself. And I said in my head, I said to myself, God, that was stupid. And Corey, one second later, I said, but it's okay, I'm doing my best. So that was the shift. It's not so dramatic, like, oh my God, I, you know, I turned into love and light. It was more like, oh, something softened for me. And when it did that, related to those thoughts was shame, was embarrassment, was a sense of inadequacy. And that interrupted my relationships with other people, not with friendships, with family, and with dating. You know, and when that lifted, I I still am more able to be a little bit more vulnerable with other people and a little bit more open to their vulnerabilities. You know, there's just a little less should. I should be this way. Corey, you should be that way. That all kind of lifted. And so I have to say my relationships have really benefited, you know, from this change in me.

SPEAKER_00: 11:45

Yeah, absolutely. What what do you think the the percentage was? If you were to look back at the the percentage of positive to, and I don't know if like positive is necessarily the right word, but helpful, right, versus unhelpful sort of thoughts. Because to your to your point, people walk around, including myself, every day thinking that this is this is helpful, helpful criticism, right? I mean, how do you get to a place you don't show up at the gym by you know loving your way into it, right? They they think that the only way to do it is to, you know, brute force, you know, to hate yourself into these sort of things. So what sort of what would you if if you had to just guess, what do you think the percentage of helpful to unhelpful thoughts were at that back in the day?

SPEAKER_01: 12:32

Well, here's what I would say, Corey. It's not that those thoughts disappeared or never come up for me. And I don't want to even offer that to your listeners, like, oh, there's a way to make these thoughts disappear. But there is a way that they don't, they're not so real. You don't believe them anymore. You know, so for me, what happened was two things. They they are less, and when they come up, they're they have less charge, if that makes sense. And from a Buddhist view, it's not changing thought, it's relating to the thought differently. Because thoughts aren't really up to us. If they were, we all would be thinking differently, right? But all the things we've learned in life, all of our experiences, when certain causes and conditions come up, well, then thoughts come up. I mean, I jokingly say sometimes I walk down the street and a journey song comes in my head. Corey, I couldn't tell you why that happens. I don't know. But there are causes and conditions beyond me. I didn't choose that. So I just want to kind of be clear to listeners that you don't have to get in there and fight with those thoughts and get rid of them. It's more of, you know, like that's the yeah. No, go ahead, Corey.

SPEAKER_00: 14:02

It's that's a really good point. And I appreciate you pointing that out because I I feel like at times, especially with men, that there can be this almost fight or this battle, right? To and it the the the same wording comes up often for me, but it's to like slay the dragon or to fight the demon, right? To to beat that part of ourself into submission. And it sounds like that it's less of, you know, those parts of us aren't ever going away, right? And and those parts of us might be, you know, different experiences in our life, right? Things that at times probably helped us in a certain sort of way. But it's yeah, I appreciate you bringing that back around that it was it's not it's not beating it into submission.

SPEAKER_01: 14:50

Yeah, it's beautiful. And yes, that whole idea of like I'm gonna slay the dragon, but you're the dragon, right? You're all of that. And there's in Zen, they have a saying stop the war with yourself. Stop the war with yourself, and that's it, you know. Oh my god, why am I thinking that again? Oh, what's wrong with me? Why am I upset again? You know, the the orientation is oh wow, I feel angry and that's so painful. How can I be with it? Right? Wow, I made a mistake that makes me feel bad about myself. And it's okay, we all make mistakes. And that's that's just it's subtle, but it's so different.

SPEAKER_00: 15:36

So I'm curious what your thoughts are around. I mean, this all makes a lot of sense to me, but I think from a male or sort of max masculinity perspective, that this also there is an aspect of this that can be interpreted as very soft.

unknown: 15:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 15:55

When when do you think you first realized for that that men specifically were struggling with it from with self-compassion in this sort of way? That there was yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 16:10

Yeah. What I've noticed in in working with men, and I'm not trying to generalize, everyone is different, but what I've noticed is you know, all of us are struggling with self-compassion. That's difficult in our culture. And the obstacles that men face are a little bit different than women, in my experience. And a lot, some of that is because men have really been inhibited by our culture, and it's really frowned upon to even express feelings to oneself, right? Uh often, often men about the only thing they're taught is they could be happy or angry, you know. And anything else, well, nobody's gonna like that. Don't cry, you know, don't be like a little girl. I mean, you still hear this today, and so as a result, many men have no idea how to connect with their feelings. And sometimes one of the biggest differences is when I talk with women, usually, not always, but usually they're able to say, Oh, I'm feeling sad, I'm feeling frustrated. And often men struggle even to name it. It takes them a lot more time to really, you know, to recognize and get in touch with themselves. Again, I'm not saying all men, I'm saying we don't teach these tools very well. And so to it's all very new, you know. It's I think you said earlier about it being like a brand new relationship, you know, to yourself. And also everyone in our culture is taught to do do do, but men have a special role to be providers, to be quote unquote successful, to do something. And so, you know, the sense is of this outward direction in the world, controlling, changing, being successful, getting things. And it's hard to sort of soften a little bit and turn towards oneself and say, oh, what's here? What's in this direction? And how is that driving, you know, how I might be acting in the world.

SPEAKER_00: 18:37

You know, it kind of makes me think of, you know, along those lines of this do-do-do or this drive, drive, drive, and and only having, you know, it seems like kind of an on and off switch, right? You're either happy or angry, right? That there's there's so much more, it's almost like black and white thinking, right? Or colorblindness, that there's so much more vibrancy to the world. There's so many ways to describe what it is that we're experiencing. And maybe that's part of what it is, uh of what I'm thinking, is that there's there's there can be such a filter on even how it is, man, we're perceiving the world, right? Because we only see it as either one thing or the other, and and aren't even allowing ourselves to experience it in such a way. And it's yeah, I mean, going back to the starting that relationship for the first time with ourselves, I I think that as you mentioned, that men are brought up to, you know, one of the ones I I quote often is like, I'll give you something to cry about, right? It was a comment. You know, it was like, Oh, I definitely don't want to cry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so we're we're taught, right, whether, you know. know uh purposefully or not that these things things these things are bad right and and I think that that when it's when we're not allowed to explore these other sort of emotions that you know if if we're if we're told that if doing any sort of exploration in that sense is bad then we don't get the opportunity to look at what frustration looks like at what boredom looks like of what sadness or anger or grief or any of these other sort of things. And the reality is that that we're all experiencing it in roundabout way what I was trying to get to here was that I think that it's they're showing up you know and they're showing up in ways that we don't necessarily maybe even acknowledge. They're showing up in our our friendships, our relationships they're showing up in our health concerns, right? And in our habits and things that we're doing they're there but we're we're still just ignoring them.

SPEAKER_01: 21:03

Yeah yeah I think so too Corey and I think you see that in in the ways in which people cope you know there are healthy coping mechanisms and then there are unhealthy ones. So it's not a judgment right or wrong good or bad and we're living in a time of unhealthy coping mechanisms are very common. Working constantly is an unhealthy coping mechanism. Many people are doing that because the moment they stop certain feelings come up that are really hard that are really confusing. And who wants to feel that so I'm gonna work constantly I'm gonna drink or take cannabis again those are not right or wrong bad things only if you're using them as a way to cope with your own feelings online porn again not against it and people are using this as a way to cope with difficult feelings so how can how can we and men in particular allow themselves to experience everything that's in their heart everything that's in their mind you know learn to shift the attention and then develop healthy coping skills going for a walk sitting in meditation talking to another person sitting quietly and enjoying a meal you know whatever it is and to do that again not because it's like a better thing in a moral sense but because it's a healthier way and because it's a friendlier way to yourself it's like you said now you get you get to know yourself now oh wow I'm pretty great actually so are you we all are we're we have these very rich lives and being able to embrace that it's very beautiful then you can also start to share it yeah there's so much there like so much of a relationship to to learn about ourselves to explore about ourselves that yet that that unfortunately I think a lot of us don't ever get the opportunity there's so many things that are coming in from the outside world at any given moment that we don't have the opportunity to sit and stop.

SPEAKER_00: 23:25

And and kind of with that I how do you feel that the the outside world I mean as we're having this conversation I just think of you know every day it's almost this gauntlet of things piling on us right and and in ways they're they're great efficiencies that technology is advancing we've got AI we've got these different things but these are all ways to work faster to work more you know to be more efficient and I find for myself more often that it's it's like this drum that's beating you know it's like boom boom boom more faster come on you know that being intentional about taking that time or turning off notifications like it's almost anxiety inducing you know to to stop and and I think getting to your point that to it's almost anxiety inducing to to stop and to take this time to to explore that relationship or to just sit in silence for a minute.

SPEAKER_01: 24:32

I mean if I'm being honest like it's so in thinking about that how do you generally navigate entering into those arenas kind of for the first time yeah yeah I mean slowly and kindly you know the first the very first step is to notice that you're doing that. I mean as you were talking about these efficiencies and these things and once you get caught in that me too it really self-generates it's very powerful. It's like you're in a you know you're on a hill rolling down it. So sometimes we're living there and not even noticing you know so the first step is being able to notice oh gosh I'm really caught in this cycle of work of doing of not paying attention to myself and so that's the first step just even knowing that that's kind of a mindful step. And then the second is saying well I'm just gonna stop just for two minutes. No big whoop I'm not gonna you know go on a retreat for a day. I'm just gonna stop for two minutes. I'm gonna close my device and stop talking to family and turn off all the screens and be with myself now this is a really novel thing for most people today to not be with a screen you know you mentioned boredom nobody wants to be bored but boredom is it's the least harmful feeling you know if you really think about it nothing's happening nobody's harming you it's just a sense of like oh there should be more here right so starting to be able just slowly slowly two minutes sit quietly with yourself notice that you have a body feel your breath you know go for a quiet walk and you'll hear so much there's so much out there cars and planes and birds people yelling right so starting to just slowly slowly do this you know I don't suggest that people you know plunge into things but to slowly start doing that and then developing a capacity to create you know you'll always hear meditation teachers we say create space and what you're creating space for is all of you your fears your dreams your wishes your loves and your joys you know all of it and when you can make space for all of it well then it's not then you're not one thing right I you know we I'm anxious I'm scared I'm angry well that's not true you know from a Buddhist view what we would say is anger is arising right now anxiety or worry is arising right now and it's not good and it's not bad and it's not all of me. I can create space around it. So here it is I can be with it I can be kind to it and most importantly this is the like the third step I don't have to act out of it because that's usually where our emotions trip up you know I'm anxious so now I'm trying to control my wife I'm anxious I'm angry so now I'm gonna yell at someone you know however it looks for you this is saying you could have your anger there's nothing wrong with it nobody's telling you not to have that and be with it be kind to it a very great Zen teacher named Tikmat Han said when he was angry he would say I see you anger and I'm not going to leave you now Corey when I read that I was I couldn't believe it nobody ever taught me something like that. They were like if you have anger you know either take it on someone else or you're a bad person you know and so that's really allows us you know starting to soften and build our capacity and you know what also arises there is kind of a natural curiosity about yourself a natural like oh I do that I feel that oh that's interesting anyway you asked how we can start we can start very slowly just noticing you do that and and giving yourself this opportunity of a minute a two three minutes to develop you know your wisdom and your kindness for yourself yeah thank you for that I and I'm I'm glad that you said two or three minutes to to start with like it I know it doesn't it may not seem like very long but I know even for myself in the past it can be so challenging to I mean two minutes when you're used to you know lights and alerts and doing and moving that two minutes can be a long time and so there's no it sounds like there's not really a way to fail at this that it's it's a beautifully said yes yes anybody listening Corey is exactly right there is no way to fail at this no way to do meditation wrong or even you know be with yourself in a wrong way it's just an experience you know and I think it's possible to shift the view just very subtly from I want to be better and fix myself to I want to take care of myself wisely. And the outcome is the same but the approach is very different when you look at it as a way of self-care taking care of yourself of taking care of your loved ones and your family by developing your own capacity to be with yourself. And I mentioned that I've studied with Tibetan teachers and well just in Buddhism in general meditation is a big tool for that and you know most people have a daily practice it could be five minutes 15 minutes 30 minutes you know you sit and it's very useful. I encourage anyone who's listening to find your way to meditation. And one of my Tibetan teachers said to us I'd like you all to practice five minutes every hour during the day so like from eight to four or nine to five just stop for five minutes every hour. And I remember thinking Corey like that's not going to do anything. That's not long enough. Oh my God it was so useful. It was after a week I could see how useful it was it really interrupted kind of my day of the snowball in my mind you know that avalanche of busyness it interrupted it every hour for this brief moment and it was a very powerful tool.

SPEAKER_00: 32:00

So I encourage your listeners, you know, you can try that too so what do you think especially in regards to men that and this is something that we talked about a little bit earlier or maybe it was before we hit record about especially in regards to to stepping into this arena I think that there can be a sense of vulnerability for men right to you know not even if we're getting to the place of actually sharing with other people but even just sharing to ourselves when when I think of you know at times like of stopping of not producing of that that can be a sense of weakness I'm curious what your thoughts are uh around that and and how we could m shift that mindset from weakness or you know I I know that there's you know being kind to ourselves and healing and things like that but shifting it from a a weakness to you know I see it as almost like a leadership sort of mentality right how does how does somebody start to crack that arm right because I think that that can be a really hard thing for somebody I I just I I picture people that I know right like ah no I'm not I'm not doing that shit.

SPEAKER_01: 33:22

Right? Yeah yeah and and you're pointing at something interesting too because in my tradition courage and power are synonymous with compassion and empathy because these are really really really powerful things whether we're compassion to ourselves or others in the world you know and I work with certain men who are very successful and you you know just if you looked at them from the outside you would think well they have everything they have gotten you know really good in their field and they're financially set and yet inside they're still not feeling right and part of this is a sense of shame a sense of not being good enough that comes up when considering slowing down a little bit when considering you know being nice to themselves and a sense that maybe they'll lose something like oh well if I'm nice to myself well then I'll never get anything done I'll be weak. I'll just sit around and you know watch porn and eat chocolate. And again from a Buddhist view the purpose of doing this is to develop your wisdom your clarity you can do that through these compassionate practices you can do this through mindfulness. Why do you want to be wise? Well so you can make good decisions for yourself and other people too and if you are a successful man and if you are in a leadership role well that means that many people are counting on you to do the right thing and I don't mean that in a moral way I mean to make good decisions on behalf of yourself and these other people if you are a family person well then you want to make good decisions for your family. And so these practices are not just like oh I want to be nice to myself it's oh I want to use my courage to recognize that what I say and do matters and I can have more freedom and choice in what I say and do if I approach myself a little more softly and understand what's operating under here you know it almost sounds like and as a as I think about it afterwards I I try to pick the right words but it almost sounds like it's more about the the real vulnerability is in not taking the opportunity to explore this right because that's where when we do need to show up for ourselves or our families or whatever it might be that we might be there might be this part of us that hasn't been explored that's maybe holding us back or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00: 36:30

So the real vulnerability is it sounds like is not in taking the time to pause or to to explore it or to become weak but it's it's more that if we don't take that opportunity then we're you know I almost see it like being vulnerable to a a virus or a cold or something like that, right? That if we don't I don't want to associate it with immunity or taking you know getting your COVID shot or anything but you know if if we don't take the time to to work out or whatever it might be then of course we're gonna be there's potential that's going to be there for us to to have health concerns later on down the road right vulnerabilities when I needed to you know I keep thinking about like when when I needed to like chase down the burglar or whatever it was, you know, that there was something there that was holding me back.

SPEAKER_01: 37:21

Yeah beautifully said yes it helps us develop our our capacity to hold our own feelings to hold others' feelings and to it in doing so what you're doing is paying attention so you are learning to pay attention to what's happening inside and outside. That gives you an edge that means in any moment you are aware and maybe you will have to chase down a burglar or maybe you will have to notice that your daughter is a little upset today what's going on there you know whatever it is or your employees or you have to make a big decision and you have to deal with your own fears in order to make that decision. You know all of those all of those are valuable in real you know in a tangible way also had a lot of Chinese businessmen who were would come and learn from him and he said to us they don't care about meditation they care that this practice will give them an edge in business because when they're sitting there talking to you know in a business meeting they are really they know more about what's happening in this moment both at the table and in themselves so they can you know really be skillful in their words and and their decisions. So it's again it's you know this softening is useful as a in practical ways as well.

SPEAKER_00: 39:00

It's a really great story of understanding this that you mentioned about the the businessmen that come to learn it not not to sit at home and ponder the meaning of life necessarily but to be better in business to understand both themselves and the people around them there there's a I mean when I think about it there's a real power being able to I don't want to say stop but to acknowledge the thoughts that are running through my mind in any of those moments and and to be with that. I tell you what like the most uncomfortable feeling is is to start or can be to start to explore that to to sit with it. But also you know I think about those businessmen at the table it's also incredibly profound to be able to there's a sense of like wisdom and almost like elderhood right or of like growth of when you can Both have those you can acknowledge those and have those going on and be sitting at the table, but yet powerful, I guess, enough to not let them bubble to the surface, like they may have before, right? And and I see that in so many ways, right? It's not us jumping out to grab the alcohol or the cannabis or the porn or whatever it is that we can sit with those heavy emotions and explore them. And it's like staying calm under pressure.

SPEAKER_01: 40:33

Yeah, it really is. And you know, before I came to these practices, I often describe myself as a leaf in the wind. And what I mean by that is when I got what I wanted, I was happy. When I didn't get what I wanted, I was unhappy. And it was just a constant sort of cycle. And there's no freedom in that. There is no freedom at all in that. And so when you have a less reactive life, you have a lot more choice. So, like, you know, you described it as maturity, as as elderhood, as wisdom. And that's what it is. You say, oh, okay, I can see all these choices I have right now. I I don't have to be the leaf in the wind. I can speak in this tone and ask for that and or say nothing right now because I know what's gonna be the wisest thing.

SPEAKER_00: 41:31

Yeah. So much good stuff here. So I I want to shift gears a little bit, right? We've talked talked a bit about the the mindfulness, the the meditation, and the the inner critic, which I I I love these topics. I could talk for hours on it. But I also want to look at this from a perspective and how this shows up in our relationships as well, our relationships with with other people and creating happy relationships, right? What do you feel like is one thing with with men that that's misunderstood about connection or partnerships?

SPEAKER_01: 42:14

Yeah. I mean, I think, and I was taught this in very implicitly, not explicitly, that men didn't have needs and that they really their feelings really don't matter. And what I mean by that is it's not their feelings aren't as important to them as they are to women. As I've gotten older, of course, that's not true. Men may not express them or feel free enough in our culture to express how they're feeling, but they're having feelings. And to be able in relationships, my relationships with men, with my husband, with my family members, and with my students, to create enough space that I allow them to bring their feelings in. Because I think it's not, you know, we can't in a culture, you can't blame men or blame women. We're all in this system. So both men, I believe, would benefit from getting in touch with their feelings, and the people who love them would benefit from encouraging that and creating space around that. You know, even if, you know, it's just simply sometimes stop talking, sometimes saying, Well, what do you think, you know, what are what are your understanding of this? How does this make you feel, or however it goes? But I do think that those sometimes we just we sometimes people really have a skewed sense, I think, of men. And and there's also this sense that if they show certain feelings, this is among men and women, I think it's throughout the culture, that they're weak. You know, so it's sort of like, oh, we'd like you to share your feelings, but oh wait, uh you know, I think you're being a baby.

SPEAKER_00: 44:12

So it's almost like when it's appropriate. Right? Like you're only allowed to do that when it's appropriate. But over here, I need you to shove, you know, shove that down.

SPEAKER_01: 44:22

Yeah, beautifully said. And appropriate is usually well, one is comfortable for me. And so I think in that way, you know, we're all co-creating a system where nobody's really getting their needs filled.

SPEAKER_00: 44:40

Yeah. That's it's an interesting thought. And and I kind of wonder about how that dynamic plays out well in a relationship. Because I I do agree that people, men, you know, both people, everybody needs to be able to share what they're experiencing, right? And what it is that's going on for them. But there is an expectation. I think as much as we don't want there to be, that there is an expectation that there is a sense of and uh even as I think about this, the the there is there is, I think, an expectation or a sense of like stoicism, right? And and maybe that gets interpreted as emotionless or leader, but as I'm thinking back to what you were just saying about what exploring that looks like, that that it doesn't have to mean like checking or falling back into this emotionless hole. Right? That it is it is an oscillation, I guess, between the two.

SPEAKER_01: 45:59

Yeah, yeah, beautifully sh said. And I do think that that happens to people, especially men, a sense of like an opening, and then a feeling of maybe rejection or someone's disappointed in them, and then a big closing, like you called it this hole, this black hole, and that's a place of deep loneliness. And I hear that a lot from all people, but especially men, you know, I'm all alone with these feelings, with the situation, you know. And so how can how can we all in our relationships, you know, respond to each other with a little bit more openness and encouragement?

SPEAKER_00: 46:50

How does how does a partner or somebody break back into that? Right? If they have if they have, you know, the we've shut that down a little bit, maybe in that opportunity. Like, how does a partner open up that arena, that container again?

SPEAKER_01: 47:12

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I in my experience, you know, with relationships, there's an idea that if we don't have a conflict and we're not fighting, everything's okay. And if we do have conflict, well, there's a problem, you know. And the truth is, you know, healthy relationships between men and women or within a family have ruptures, and the healthiest know how to repair the rupture. And so there was a psychoanalyst named Heinz Kohut in the 20th century, and he said all of our communication and our really our relationships is tip typified by rupture and repair. And those of us that have loving relationships know how to repair. And so it's constant, I guess is my point. It's not like, oh, you know, you and I are we're gonna have a blow-up and then we'll resolve it and it's never gonna happen again. It's gonna be we're gonna miscommunicate, we're gonna misunderstand each other. I might hurt your feelings, you might hurt mine, and we're gonna stop and repair that rupture. How are we gonna do it? Well, first, each of us are gonna take care of our own feelings because I can't say this enough, Corey, but taking care of your feelings is taking care of your family's feelings in a certain way. Like you're not putting it on someone else. So, first in this rupture is acknowledging your own whatever's going on in you, right? A sense of rejection, a sense of embarrassment. And then the second part is okay, I've I'm in a place now where I can speak with my partner or my family member, and I can share what's going on with me, and I can be open to what's going on with them. And just because my feelings got hurt, it doesn't mean someone did something wrong. Okay. And I can say, oh, my husband's feelings got hurt. I could see why they got hurt. It doesn't mean I would did anything wrong at all. Maybe I was, you know, just not paying attention. But I can hold that without being defensive, saying, oh no, no, you're wrong. That's not how it went. Why are you acting like this? It's, oh, you're feeling like this. Okay, I get it. Let's talk about it. And we can do this, you know, with one another. And in relationships, it's just like everything else, it's gonna take practice. Sometimes you're gonna fail. Sometimes I'm like, what are you talking about? That's crazy, right? And I have to sit down and take a breath, you know, and start again, rupture and repair. But it's a very worthwhile practice of anything I think that we're all gonna do in our lives. This will be of the most benefit to you. You know, you can really feel it when that connection is made with people you love.

SPEAKER_00: 50:27

You know, it sounds like there's really a thread throughout all of this as we talk about mindfulness and kindness with ourselves and taking pause, of being able, you know, as I heard you say, stopping and acknowledging your own reaction or emotions in the moment before trying to proceed. I mean, I can see for myself in the past and others the times where it we want to go right into fixing it. And then I can see how there it would probably lead to reacting from a place that it's like, you know, reacting as a different person almost because we haven't really stopped and explored or navigated, like, well, how do I feel about it? Yeah, you know, and then I I show up in a way that is defensive, right? Or whatever it is, but so it just how much of the it's interesting how much of this all really plays together of taking the time to sit with yourself and your thoughts and explore that a little bit, maybe a little calmness, taking a break between the two of you, and then coming back to repair that rupture from a place of of I guess if anything, a little bit more information or a little bit more knowledge than anything else. That's that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01: 51:51

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think it's possible to begin to learn to begin to when you soften to yourself, Kim. I mean it's okay. You know, Kim, you said that it was came out of the blue, it was really mean. I wish I hadn't done that. Okay, Kim. I'm gonna I'm gonna be kind to myself about that. You can start to do that for other people too, you know, and be able to take in, you know, their mistakes, their errors. And instead of, I mean, so many people come to me, they want other people to change. Their kids, their spouse, their boss. Other people are not going to change. You can just choose to love them, you can choose to leave them, you can use your wisdom to decide how to do that. But that part isn't up to you, you know. But what you can do is change how you relate to yourself and in doing so to them and maybe allow space for them. And again, you know, I'm not talking about abusive people or those are a whole different thing. But our regular life together, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 53:09

Yeah. Yeah, totally. Well, hey, as we start to to wrap up here, Kim, if if you could speak directly to the men that are listening who feel exhausted or ashamed, right, or are disconnected, but don't know where to start, what would you want them to hear from you?

SPEAKER_01: 53:33

Well, first of all, I'd want I want all of you, anybody listening that feels this way, to know that there's nothing wrong with you. That I don't believe really in like self-help in the sense of you need you're like a project that needs to be fixed. I don't believe that. I believe everyone has struggles and suffering. Everyone who's listening, you have struggles and suffering. And it is possible for you to bring some softness to that, to bring some understanding to that, to get to know yourself in a much deeper way, so that you do suffer less, you know, so that you do feel more uh at ease with yourself, and in that way at ease with other people too. And that includes things like your shame, your fears, your insecurities, you know, that's normal. It's okay for you to have that. How can you use your wisdom to be with that? You know, and I just want everyone to know that you can do that, it's possible.

SPEAKER_00: 54:40

I love how so much of this, and what I continue hearing from you is that it's you know, by leading yourself, you're opening up that space to show up better for others, right? To to have more understanding, to have more empathy, to have more grace, right? And and gratitude for everybody around us. So it's sounds like it's really a a win-win, right? In helping yourself and in others. So where where can the guys that are listening go to learn more about you and to read your books?

SPEAKER_01: 55:15

Yeah. You can reach me at my website, meditationwithheart.com, meditationwithheart.com. I've written several books. The most recent is called Happy Relationships. I have a book about grief and loss, navigating grief and loss. And you can find those books on at any bookseller. And the information is on my website. And if you're interested, I have a weekly newsletter through Substack. It's free. I share teachings and recorded meditations, and so sign up. You might find it useful.

SPEAKER_00: 55:56

Awesome. Well, hey, thanks, Kim, for all of your information and being here today. I it's I know for myself that being more thoughtful and more practical, practicing these things more often has been life-changing. So I think between between all of that, I I hope and I think everybody will get a lot out of today's episode. So thanks for thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_01: 56:22

You're welcome, Corey. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 56:25

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