SPEAKER_01: 0:04

Are you ready to break free from hesitation, self-doubt, and isolation? Do you want to lead with confidence, build powerful connections, and live boldly? I'm Corey Baum, and I'm here to share the most impactful strategies and mindsets that I've learned through coaching, leadership, and real-world experience. Together, we'll forge unshakable confidence, master social dynamics, and create a life rooted in purpose, brotherhood, and bold action. Inside, you'll get the tools and insights to become the strongest, most connected version of yourself. Let's dive in. All right, today I'm joined by a man who spent decades helping people grow, lead, and evolve. Kevin McNulty is an international speaker, author, coach, and podcaster based in Nashville, Tennessee. He served 20 years in the U.S. Air Force advising commanders on human relations and then founded Humidine, a life skills institute focused on helping individuals and organizations make authentic, lasting change. He's the author of The Gap Between Two Worlds, endorsed by giants like Dr. Marshall Goldsmith and Brian Tracy, a book about navigating change, transition, and finding clarity in the space between who you've been and who you're becoming. What I love about Kevin is that he brings a deeply human grounded perspective to growth. He works with real people, real life, and real internal battles, not just quick fixes. So today we're going to explore what it really looks like for a man to grow, not just to not just perform growth, but to actually evolve through awareness, courage, and an honest self-reflection. So Kevin, welcome to the Evolved Men podcast.

SPEAKER_00: 1:53

Thank you so much. I appreciate it. And it's just great to be here with you. Love the project, Corey, and what you're working on here. And, you know, it's really, I think it goes without saying, truly needed uh these days. Thanks, Kevin. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01: 2:09

So, you know, one of the things as I was going over this, it you have a really fascinating journey, right? Uh Air Force, human relations advisor, you know, internationally speaking, coaching, writing. So when you look back, what was the moment or or maybe it was a season that that nudged you toward this path of helping people grow and understand themselves?

SPEAKER_00: 2:35

Well, it was truly in every word, you know, an evolution. You know, it's interesting in reading a little bit about you and some of the commentary that you wrote, I think in the about section on your webpage, and you talked about you talked about, you know, sort of hiding and staying small and reading the room. You know, I had very similar upbringing, but mine wasn't, you know, you talk, I think it it appears that you talk about, you know, the the presence of alcohol with your parents and these sorts of things that that, you know, and the things that sort of pushed you into the background. For me, it was a military dad. You know, God rest the soul. He died in 2021, and and uh and I'm very, very thankful that he and I established really a beautiful relationship later on in life. We we didn't end up throughout our life having a bad relationship, but it was very distant in my way of thinking, particularly in my head. Because as a kid, so I'm one of five as a kid, he was a green beret, he was a soldier through and through, three and a half years in Vietnam, purple hearts, bronze stars, everything. You know, just sort of a qualified and certified badass, if you will. You know, but at home, he was the same person. He was all military. We didn't get to express ourselves. Emotions, I think you even mentioned this, was it was not on the table. We never even considered talking back to my dad. I mean, it's not that we didn't talk back to him. It never entered our mind. When we were in trouble or when he was just 100% wrong about something, it those words never came out of our mouth. It was only yes, sir, completely in fear of him, of the consequences for being wrong, all of these sorts of things. So, like you, I grew up, you know, learning to read people's expressions, learning to, as you said, read the room, you know, and just starting to pay attention to that. And I I was a little bit unique from the standpoint that I was very much a po poet. I I was a singer, I wanted to be an entertainer. I was, you know, when it came to physical work, for instance, or tedious work, I was lazy as they come. I did not, I wanted to lay around and think about life and write songs and sing and dream. And that this was me. So that just didn't fit in my dad's worldview. He was all about get to work, work hard, get focused, you know, yada yada yada. And so I think as a part of this, you know, my external life, be outside of the family, outside of him, was then trying to figure out how to be what I wanted to be and how to read other people and how to fit in. I mean, I think all of us as kids are trying to figure out how to fit in, but I was desperate to fit in. I was desperate to be that person that I didn't, that I not only couldn't be at home, but that, you know, my father was uh pushing on me this idea of you know being just hard work and disciplined up at five in the morning, making your bed type of a person. And that wasn't me at all. So I had to go out and figure out who that was. Well, I also wasn't the popular kid at school either. In fact, not even close. And on top of that, we moved around all the time. So I'm trying to sort all of this stuff out as a kid and trying to trying to figure out who I was. And so it came down to, like you, trying to sort out how I fit in. I learned how to read people, I learned how to figure out when people were not happy with what I said or whether, or when I said something stupid, or when I was talking too much. It's it's really, it's it's too much to explain in a brief period of time, but but in the end, I just started really being the observer in the group. And I think you also said that. You stood back and observed your life, and that's exactly how I became. Well, you and I, we people like us, we end up doing podcasts. We end up doing these sorts of things because now we have collected this knowledge, this observation of the world, this ability to communicate and interact and build relationships because of the mode that we were put in to observe, to read the room, to pay attention, to learn how to step up or step back when you needed to. And so then I joined the Air Force and out of necessity, actually, I I came, I came to the Nashville area when I was just out of high school and and tried to make it as a singer-songwriter. And I'd say probably it took me about 24 hours to figure out that not only was I not in the ballpark, I wasn't even in the parking lot. And so I struggled for about a year and a half out of high school, really searching and trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life. I ended up going into the military, going back to what was familiar to me. I joined the military and immediately started thriving, you see, for a couple of different reasons. One, because I was familiar with just that environment. Even though I wasn't in the military, I understood what it was. I was around my dad's, you know, friends and all these other things all the time. So I went into one career and in what what we called environmental support. Basically, I worked in water and waste. And I'll I'll skip past that. I spent a couple of about six years in that. It was very interesting work, actually. And then I went into what we call human relations education. So that's where I started advising commanders. Well, by that time, Corey, I'm I'm almost a pro at it. I'm almost an expert, if you get what I'm saying, from the standpoint that I really, really understood people. So I could sit across from commanders, even at a young age, and understand how to quickly adapt to them, quickly know where they're going, what they're thinking, what they're where they're going with something, and how to adjust how I communicated with them. And I'd say, in a positive sense, I became quite the chameleon. You know, and and and so I thrived. I also started speaking and doing training and consulting and coaching, all these other sorts of things. And yeah, you do that for 15 years and you get pretty good at it. For one other reason, though I might offer that in the military, these ideas of soft skills, human relations, equal opportunity and treatment, even these the concept of race relations and diversity and all those sorts of things that we dealt with were mission critical to us. You see, it wasn't a scenario where if somebody said something inappropriate to a female or something like that, that the company would get sued. That's not what it was. We saw it from the standpoint that, you know, if your people are not focused on their work, if they're worried about how they're being treated or being discriminated against or poor leadership, this impacts the mission. This affects our ability to fight and win wars. So my position behind the work that I did was critical. It wasn't just a nice HR thing to do. And so this is what I then brought into the private sector when I got out in 2000 and started pursuing this work and soft skills and human relations and workplace dynamics and all those sorts of things. I brought a different, completely different tone to the private sector, which they went, this is kind of different. He's not talking about being politically correct. He's talking about, you know, your people, you know, being productive and getting things done and keeping focused on the mission and all those sorts of things.

SPEAKER_01: 11:17

So the mission behind the mission, sort of thing. Correct. You know, I'm I'm kind of curious and listening to you say, and thank you for sharing all of that. Question that I had was it seems interestingly so similar to was there different points throughout this process of you doing it that there was kind of a like going back to your relationship between yourself and your dad? I see, you know, I was there any sort of you know, your dad being the commander, right? And almost like an opportunity of like, hey, these are the things that I wished he had that we'd had a different relationship, right?

SPEAKER_00: 12:00

Yeah, I I'm not 100% sure that I'm I understand the question, but it but what I what I will say that might answer what you're saying is that in the military, in in the work that I did, that there was one other aspect of military I have to share with you because it was critical, but it's it's such a uh right turn that sometimes people just go, wait, I don't quite get all of this. So in the military, so I joined the military, I had a number of careers. One, I started off in environmental support, and again, this was on-the-ground work, grunt work, you know, you we even had wartime missions in the Air Force with this sort of thing. And then I went into human-related education, but in between those places, and while I was even in both of those career fields, I was in a group called Tops and Blue, and it's actually a military entertainment group that travels the world entertaining the troops. So you see, you see what a it's kind of a weird turn. And it evolved, it had been around since 1954. I mean, there's some people that you would know that were part of Tops and Blue. But in any event, it involved, so our mission was basically, again, to travel the world, entertaining the troops, doing recruiter gigs, very similar to let's just say the Blue Angels or the Thunderbirds or something like that. That that's their, you know, it's it's it's part of it's it's part of a morale, welfare, and again, recruitment. So in this work, we were the entertainers. So the 30 of us that traveled in a in a bus, you know, and in airplanes and all these other sorts of things, we were with each other for 24-7. And when I say 24-7, I mean 24-7 because we were not only the entertainers, we were also the roadies. So we would travel for a number of hours, get to a venue, we would put on our work clothes, we would then set up. I mean, it was a million-dollar show. It was a big, big show, you know, of semis of equipment and this sort of thing. So we'd set up the show, we'd maybe get back to our rooms for a couple of hours, we'd go back, we'd play a show, we put on our costumes, we'd do an hour and a half show, sometimes two shows in a night. We'd then go to a banquet where we'd met dignitaries. Then we'd go back to the venue, to the theater or the whatever it was, and put our gloves back on, our steel toe shoes, and tear the work down. So maybe it's now one o'clock in the morning, two o'clock in the morning, get up and do it the next same thing over and over. Here's the point. First of all, if you know anything about entertainers, we we have massive egos. I mean, it's just you kind of have to be that way. But it's on steroids with entertainers and musicians and so forth. So now imagine traveling with a group of 30 people with big egos, 24-7, on a bus, working your butt off, and what you learn behind that, Corey. How you learn about interacting with people. Well, I did that for four years, on and off. So it's they're six-month tours. And that was where my real accomplishment took place when it came to the work that I'm doing was learning and doing this over and over again, and learning how to integrate with so rapidly and become a high performance team. And I mean a really high performance team. It was a very high visible group. So that's an important component to that. So when I got out, by the time I got out of the Air Force, my dad had already seen my accomplishments. I had a lot of accomplishments. And and in his mind, I was very, very successful, you see. And so now he was, he was, and I'm I'm out of the house too. I'm not a kid anymore. I'm married, and and and the type of person was, I held a grudge, I think, deep inside. But first of all, as a man of faith and these other things, I, you know, I I didn't, and the work that I did and personal development human relations, I just didn't hold this outward grudge toward him. I was like, you know, I mean it's not like I didn't he didn't love me. I didn't think he did growing up. In fact, I thought he hated me. But, you know, just as you have kids and you grow up and you realize, ah, that was pretty effed up, but uh, you know, I just can't I can't hang on to that. So I kept a decent relationship with him. And then towards, but then, but here's my point. Along the way, there was probably two or three times that I was with him, Corey, that I just knew he he the words would not come out of his mouth, but I just knew he was saying, I'm getting choked up even thinking about it. I I could hear himself saying, Kevin, I am so sorry for how I treated you. And I knew he was saying that. It was just little things that he said. And and and there was a couple of times that I would just say, Dad, I get it. I listen, it's all good. You know, and so I I guess maybe to just round off your question is that that that's how that evolved as well. And then the last several years of his life, he moved here to where we're at, near Nashville, and he lived down the street at an at an independent living place. And he and I, and my brothers and sisters, they live outside of this area. So, you know, I had a lot of access and I became a bit of his caretaker and these sorts of things. And uh, we just built a beautiful relationship, you know. And so it just all sort of worked out. I learned more about how he was brought up, and once I learned that, I was like, okay, well, well, I had it easy.

SPEAKER_01: 17:53

There's more pieces of the puzzle.

SPEAKER_00: 17:54

Correct.

SPEAKER_01: 17:56

It all made more sense again.

SPEAKER_00: 17:57

It all made more sense, yeah. Yeah, that was a beautiful thing in the end.

SPEAKER_01: 18:01

Yeah. Well, again, thank you for sharing all of that. That's it's you know, I'd I'd like to kind of touch on a little bit, you know. I know that you've spent decades helping people go through change, right? Military commanders, it sounds like you're an integral part in a lot of these sort of things that you did, right? Navigating through different things. What do you feel like men misunderstand most about growth and transition?

SPEAKER_00: 18:35

Well, particularly for men, and and and some of that has been changing over the recent years in because of the way that roles are changing between men and women. But I think some of the things that I know that I've heard you talk about in other podcasts, and and it's the idea that I really waffle back and forth because I am like like I've been married 40 years. My wife is very accomplished. She was also in the Air Force, spent 10 years in the Air Force, and she's had an extraordinary career, but she was also a stay-at-home mom for many of those years. So we she built her own business and I built my business. But the point is that if you will, we live a more or less traditional, have a more of a traditional marriage, where you know, there's the role of of the man and there's a role of the woman. But we don't often act, like, for instance, you know, on the one hand, I guess if you asked her and probably asked me and said, is is there a head of the household? I'd probably say me. But I we don't behave that way. We are partners in the greatest of sense, but we both grew up in more traditional style families, and so that's what we bring to the table. But we have worked it out. So beautifully that you know we're we're just equal partners in what we do. But my point is that you know you know, I do believe men and women and women are different and they have different roles and they bring different things to the table. You see what I'm saying? And so I I say all of that to say that, you know, traditionally men have believed that their role is exclusively this, and that if you try to pull them outside of that role, or if you try to deny them that role, it becomes a problem, not just at home, but in the workplace as well. So it's the whole idea of masculinity, which I don't have a problem with. I think it's a natural state of being, as is femininity. And you and and we all know, I think we all know, and probably most people would agree, is there's a spectrum with all of that. There are some men that are more masculine, those that we consider too masculine, then are comes the term toxic mask masculinity. And then those who are too feminine, then they have a whole different, we look at them differently as well. But what people need to understand is it is a spectrum. What I think men don't understand, that I think more women do now, is that that idea and a whole host of other ideas is on a spectrum. It is not a dichotomy. And this is where I think men traditionally go wrong is recognizing, and when I say it's on a spectrum, you don't just land on a spectrum. You don't just land somewhere on the spectrum and say, okay, here I am. No, you use the spectrum to and you develop the spectrum and you learn how to move back and forth. So, in other words, when I need to be, let's even take it from a leadership standpoint, because I think it explains the same thing. When I'm involved with a group and it's very apparent that there's no leader there, I rise up and become the leader. If I realize that I'm dealing with a lot of people that don't know much about what they do, then I may rise up a little bit more and I become, if we can use this term, a little more authoritative or take more control of it, you see, in from that sense. But I also recognize there are boundaries behind that. So whereas I'm a stronger personality than my wife, I don't, I don't step on her, even though I might, you know, I might be, I might be, even if I'm mad or something, I may exude some masculinity here or or step up, you know, I can kick her ass in the end. You know, I we don't operate that way. I don't, I don't take advantage of the fact that she's really laid back. She lets things roll off her back, she's a pleaser, you know, the this sort of thing. And I'm aware of that. And and she's also aware of this spectrum. So we know when to step up and when to step back. The same thing with leaders. Men have not quite figured this out enough. So if it's you're a leader, if you're a dad, whatever the case might be, understand that we are comprised of both masculine traits and feminine traits. And that, again, it's you're not going from a toxic man to a sissy man, if if we can use those terms, but rather you learn how to navigate that spectrum on both sides of you. You learn how to be loving and vulnerable and compassionate and caring, and you and you can exude that. But you also know when to step up and be the protector when you need to be. I don't know if that answers your question, but but that this is the thing that I think where men should explore a little bit more about understanding the vastness of their personality, their temperament, and how they can grow on both sides of wherever they lie on that spectrum.

SPEAKER_01: 24:13

Yeah, you know, I think that to your point that there's a lot of it's it's almost like there's a box, right? Or an image, a picture of like this is exactly what it's supposed to be, right? If you're a leader or a man or whatever might that be, that that this is the only way it looks, right? That it doesn't it doesn't look any other way. And something that I've been talking a lot about lately, and it's not necessarily a new topic, but really to your point is that leadership isn't always about being at the front of the room, barking orders, telling everybody what to do. It's it really is that flexibility of you know identifying the strengths of other people and knowing when to step back, right? Or but really being that and it's interesting as we talk about this because it's those same skills, those same kind of soft skills that could be seen as toxic, right? And how we change the way in which we behave within an environment. You know, that those can be used for bad, right, when we're manipulating and doing those sort of things, but those same sort of skills are seen as a great asset when you can step into a room or an environment and either take charge when you need to, or similarly to step back and let somebody else sort of lead. And you know, I I I wish, and that's kind of the idea is we're talking about it today, that men would see stepping out of that box, right? Of moving up and down on that spectrum, that it is just that, that uh you know, maybe a scale, a spectrum that moving up and down on it doesn't take away from another aspect of who you are and who your identity is. 100%.

SPEAKER_00: 26:11

Yeah, yes, so well said. All of these, this is one you I'm working on a new book right now, and one of and and it's basically seven truths for learning, growing, and change, and that's sort of my working title. But one of them, one of the truths is is essentially to stop thinking in dichotomies. And if you if even your your your listeners and your viewers, if you just start paying attention to uh especially today, how people you know converse and interact, many time many people think in dichotomies. So you might bring up a situation and somebody else disagrees, and what they do is go completely to the far end of that spectrum to argue back to you about something. And you know, rather than understanding that, you know, that there's a lot of there's a lot of wiggle room in in our conversations, in our understanding of things, that if we just take a moment to explore a little bit more, then we can start to understand people, have more empathy and those sorts of things, rather than just take the alternate or the other position around something. You see, and this is a tendency that we split things into either or, and and by the way, it's where basic conversations, you know, I'm the leader, you're not. There's the dichotomy. And so, to your point, now imagine you're sitting around uh a table with, and let's say you're the CEO of an organization, and you're sitting around with, let's say, 10 vice presidents, and you take on that position that I'm the leader and you're not. It's a pretty it's the short conversations, people won't tell you the truth, people won't give you their best ideas. In fact, in in that sense, people are incapable of giving you their best ideas, because when you throw an idea out there, then you as the boss either accept it or deny it. So there's no dialogue behind it. But rather, to your point, that if a leader understands that there is a there is a spectrum, there is a there is wiggle room, there's there's ways to go back and forth as you interact with people, you know, then the leadership becomes much more powerful. So imagine this. We're sitting, you're the CEO, you're sitting with 10 C ten 10 VPs, big project comes to town. Again, you're you have a massive ego, you're authoritative, you're just this is the way we're gonna get it. And you're very successful, by the way. And so you sit down at the table and you say, okay, folks, here's a new project. It is massive, it's very important to the board of directors, yada, yada, yada. Here's what what we're gonna do. I need you to do this, Kevin. I need this, you know, how however you pose that, that's what happens. As opposed to the leader who recognizes what you just said is that leadership is just not all about stepping up and you know, and and throwing down on people. But rather, imagine you're sitting down and saying, So let me uh let me put myself in that role. I'm the CEO, you're one of the VPs, and I sit down and say, We've got this massive project. It's so incredibly important, and yada, yada, yada. And and I give you a short explanation of it, and I might say something like, Corey, what are your initial thoughts about this? Where do you think we ought to go with it? You I I could see by the look on your face, you immediately noticed the difference.

SPEAKER_01: 30:01

Well, absolutely. I mean, because then at that point, like we're part of a team, right? We're we're working on this together, you know. It's it's this sense of and to your point, right, as we've talked about, like human behavior and and how that triggers the mind, like, hey, we're uh you're looking for ad my my advice. I've got something to contribute. You're not just telling me this is what you're going to do. Now, you know, going back to whether or not and I and I love that you use that that description because that same sort of thing in the hands of a a good leader is using that as a tool, right? To build trust, as we talked about earlier, right? To build community and buy-in and things like that. Yeah, those are two entirely different approaches, but that that takes somebody being willing to start to transition out of maybe what it is that they know. And I I imagine in your work, a lot of military leaders, commanders, yeah, probably they might have grown up that way as well. But it's I can imagine that that's a lot of your work is supporting people through this to make that that transition of like, hey, okay, you've you've done this for a long time and it's worked. I'm not faulting you for that. Correct. But we want we want to get even better. And kind of to your point, of like, this isn't it sounds like in the military that it wasn't a you know, hey, we need to throw dollars at this to put a band-aid on it, that they really realized that there was kind of a gap between where maybe some of these leaders were and where they the vision that they had of where they could go.

SPEAKER_00: 31:45

Yes. Very, very well said. And the thing, and by the way, where where I learned that, what I talked about with respect to the sitting around the table, I learned that as a human relations advisor, as an advisor to commanders, because over the course of years, I've sat in on this side, you're the commander, innumerable times. Can't even count the number of times that I sat in the office. I went to a commander's office because we just did a giant human relations climate assessment on their organization, or a whole host of problems that brought me to their table. And what I realized and started to observe over the years is that the best commanders and even the most successful commanders were always the I presented to you the information about your organization. So climate assessment, we know they're kind of like employee engagement surveys, if you will, more in depth in the military. But in the end, we spend 30 days inside their organizations. We do all kinds of interviews and all sorts of things. What we're trying to figure out is what is the, you know, what what the pulse of the organization, what's going on, how's it doing, what's the health of the human relations factor, the and all these sorts of things. So needless to say, especially in large organizations, oftentimes we have a lot of bad news to bring to that commander because of little pockets of problems here. Or I mean, sometimes these organizations they're they're they're fast moving, but there might be a thousand people in in this in the in like a maintenance squadron that fixes airplanes and all these. Imagine how critical human relations is when you have a group that flies planes and that has to repair planes. So you bring this information to your to the commander, and the best ones were always the ones that said, Yeah, I read your report, Kevin. It's deep. It was hard to read. Where do you think we ought to start with this? Those were always the best ones. And people have learned that in the private sector, and there's a lot of people that operate that way. But but then there's others. If you want to call them toxic males or toxic females, you know, first words out of my mouth, and they threw me out of their office, literally threw me out. You know, get the F out of here. Uh you know, you you people need to learn how to whatever, whatever, whatever. And if I followed their careers, they probably didn't last very long in the military. Because so, anyways, yes, but you know, that there's the idea. But even down to this point about what I was talking about around the conference table, that you can either be that authoritative person barking out orders or the person that asks questions. Again, that is not a dichotomy, and this is my main point. It's not you're either that or this. It's it's you you can blend that. You in that same meeting, you may have to step up and say, no, we're not going to do it that way.

SPEAKER_01: 34:47

Sure.

SPEAKER_00: 34:48

It's just that not enough people, men, particularly, I would say, because they've more stereotypically been in these authoritative roles, don't uh don't explore the spectrum. They don't even think about the spectrum. Some are lack so much self-awareness, they don't even know a spectrum it exists. They're just here. I'm the boss, and you're not. That's it, you see.

SPEAKER_01: 35:17

You know, as you were saying all that too, it was uh making me think that we've talked about this from a perspective of a very like toxic masculinity perspective, like one end of the spectrum sort of thing. Maybe there's walls up at that end of the spectrum, and they don't see that there's a lot more to it. But I think that there's also another end of the spectrum in this that is very reserved, very quiet, very giving to get, right? That is unwilling to step into you know, to to go from the shadows to confidence and leadership and those sort of things. So I think that this idea, right? And we don't have to go down this early that rabbit hole, but I think this idea of there's a gap in between those two.

SPEAKER_00: 36:09

You got it.

SPEAKER_01: 36:10

Right. There, there is the one end that is maybe toxic masculinity, but then there's the other far end of the spectrum. And I see it at times as like the pendulum swinging from one side to the other. But the idea is bringing those two worlds out of their boxes or whatever it might be, into exploring, you know, and and I say exploring because I as somebody, even myself that has, you know, I would say for a large part of my life, probably more on the quiet and reserved sort of spectrum that man, it's a challenge for me to go out into the middle of that spectrum and you know, walk with more confidence and be more assertive. But at the same time, like I do to your point, like I do enjoy being a leader and stepping into opportunities of of leadership. But I think it can be to an extent just as probably uncomfortable when I think about it for for either of those men to step out of their comfort zone and into that. So kind of kind of going back, how how do you suggest that men begin making that transition? Right. And thinking about both guys in there.

SPEAKER_00: 37:28

Yes. No, that the honestly, that it's it's truly a great question and a great point that you're bringing up there because you're right, that's the other end of the spectrum, you know. And and it's it's it is probably harder from that end of the spectrum to be a leader than this side, because on this side, on the the softer side, uh they have less control. And so the, you know, the when you when you're not in control, it everything becomes harder. I mean, it's it's you know, whereas the person on the toxic side, if you will, let's just say the authoritative side, they believe they are in control, they are in control, and it is easier for them because they are controlling it. It's kind of like, you know, in conflict resolution, I do I'm I'm also a mediator, so I I've done a lot of mediation where, particularly between like a subordinate and their supervisor, it could be a manager and their executive or something like this. You know, if you if you were to just listen and and to these people interact with each other, you know, the well let me explain it this way. So I've developed this model, it's basically a real relationship-building model or trust-building model that is on a spectrum, believe it or not, on this side is a dysfunctional relationship, this is a highly functional relationship, and then there's the functional relationship in the middle. And so if if I were to intervene in this conversation between, let's just say, a manager and their employee, and I asked them to plot themselves where they believe that relationship exists, the employee always suggests a more negative relationship than the manager does. The manager always seems to be much more optimistic about it. And this is almost, I would almost say 100% of the time I've seen this happening. Why is it precisely what you're saying? And what we're talking about here is that the manager's in control. They have less stress about it, they have less anxiety about the relationship and their existence because they're in control. If they don't like what the employee is saying, they can tell them to leave. The employee can't do that to the manager. And so it becomes very, very difficult. But you're right about the gap you know existing. And it's one of the reasons why, to your point, that if a person well, let's start with this self awareness is The key. It's you know, it's the key to everything that, you know, so if I'm coaching somebody, you know, I I don't want to drill myself into the this is the perfect model that I always use because it's not that way. But, you know, a couple of things need to happen uh up front, and I'll get to the point that you're making up here. One, I want to know who's who I'm sitting with. Even in a mediation, if I detect that I have somebody who's just a a complete certified narcissist or a pathological liar, I'm like, what's the point in doing this? If this person's a pathological liar or or they're psychotic, I mean, really, what what are we gonna accomplish here in this media? How are we gonna have an honest conversation if this person's always lying? It's it's pointless. So let's not do it, you see. So in any event, the the first thing that I want to know is who am I dealing with? And this is where I'm exploring under the water. I may even, like, especially in coaching, test the person. You know, are they are they are they honest, an honest person? Do they have integrity? They could still be an asshole, but still be a decent person, honestly. And that's what I want to know. So, what's their character like? And so I start with that. That's one of the first things that I want to know. Then the second thing, of course, is building trust so that we can discuss. And then we get around to this point to your question about how we how these people start to explore more than the authoritative style or the you know, or the I don't know what what term shall we use? The, you know, the step on me style. Yeah, passive, very passive. Yeah, there you go. There you go. That's a good one. And so, you know, the next thing that I need to know is, okay, so what is it actually that you need? I mean, we're not, I'm not asking you to go from this authoritative to this totally passive person. We're not gonna, we're not gonna explore that. There's a gap. The gap that we're really trying to accomplish is where you're at and where you want to be. You see, uh, let me start using these metaphors too much and they break apart. And and that's where I really want to get to. So if they're saying, yeah, you know, I mean, man, my employees basically hate me because I'm a hard driver, I work like crazy, I don't think about anything but my job, but but I'm I'm at a place now that I got to do something because my company is suffering from it. And this is the business owner. Okay, so now we start to explore what's driving all of that, and we start to see, okay, maybe it's this authoritative, this hard line, this, I don't listen, I don't care, or at least I don't appear to care and all those sorts of things, and then start to draw up, okay, you know, what what is it, you know, what is it do you need to accomplish and what do you think we need to do? And then I eventually get around to this idea that no matter which side you're on, because both of those sides by themselves don't work, is to help them understand that it's all about building skills. You can build skills, simple skills, like if you are totally passive, you don't like to get in people's faces. Okay, so are we gonna move you towards getting in people's faces? That's not really effective either. What is it that you're trying to do? Well, I need people to understand that when I make a decision, the decision's made. You know, if I come to this place where I've made the decision, the decision is made. Okay, so let's talk about the skills that would get you there. Is what what's the problem? Why don't they understand it? Well, because I will tell them I've made a decision and then I will not have made the decision. You see? So we're we're talking about a gap here. All of these things involve a gap. Okay, so so then we explore what they're doing now, why why they fall back on their decisions, and and and then talk about the their basic skills. And oftentimes it's just a communication thing or an integrity thing, by the way, that we then want to build back up. So you don't have to get in in into anybody's face to say, you know, I appreciate your input. We've discussed this many times. Uh I've thought about it very deeply, and here's my decision. And I understand that you don't like it, but my decision is made. What's the next step? Stick to your decision, you see. So so so again, you're you're taking a very passive person and just developing a few just a few hacks that they need to apply to to get to that place. And by the way, once they start doing it, they start to realize the benefit of doing it. By the way, the same things go for this toxic person who has no compassion. I'm like, well, listen, I don't know how to teach you how to be compassionate. Probably the thing that I would do is send you down to South America to like Nicaragua and and work with some of those ultimately those poor people, that might build up a little bit of empathy and compassion in you. But otherwise, I'll say it this way. I learned many, many years ago, it's one of the big staples, the big principles I learned in life about love. And this changed my marriage, quite frankly. And this was when Stephen Covey, I heard him say, love is a verb. And when he said that, because I was already in the human relations, personal development world. So I understood these things. I mean, but when he said it, it just rocked my world. I was like, and he he went on to say, you know, there's love, the noun, it's how you feel, you know, it's this feeling you get inside towards the other person. But how beneficial is that to the other person? That's really more self-centered, right? It's how I feel. I feel so good about our relationship, even though I treat you like crap, but I feel really good about it. You see the difference? And so he was basically posing this idea that love is a verb. If you really want to show love, it's what you do for the other person. You see? And so all of these things play that role. So the same thing about compassion. There's compassion, the feeling, and then there's compassion, the behavior. If, if you, if you know, can you listen to the person and hear that they're saying, My life is so screwed up right now, you may not feel anything, but did you hear what they say? Okay, now do something that's compassionate. Like, how can I help you? You don't have to feel that necessarily. It's better if you can feel, I think. You know, you you want to feel things. But if you're trying to develop to be more empathic or more compassionate, it comes down to some simple behaviors or some simple words or some simple hacks. And this is what people need to understand about these gaps that you're you're developing. It almost always comes down to behavior. In my book, The Gap Between Two Worlds, you know, there's some philosophical and theoretical ideas about it, you know. But so for instance, you have the old world, new world, and then the foggy zone in between. And to make a long story short, you leave, let's say, leave one career, and now you're going to move into another. Or let's say you're leaving a career completely and retiring. So here's the old world. That's what you've known for 30, 40, 50 years. And now you're going to a place of retirement, and it's just rocking your world because you have your whole idea and identity was in this. So you get into this transition, you move into the foggy zone, which is represented by mostly emotional, psychological things like disorientation, anxiety, depression, all these disorientation, all these other sorts of things. So the way to get out of that, though, is movement. It's not more theory, it's not more thinking. It's more, okay, well, let's do this. Let's at least come up with a cursory, a general vision of what that looks like. And then let's start putting some steps into play to get there. You see, it's and those involve action and behavior and those sorts of things.

SPEAKER_01: 48:20

Yeah, well, you know, that's a really good point as I think about that. And even the work that I've done for my myself and with others is that that over there is scary.

unknown: 48:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 48:29

That that part in between, right? And so if we continue to stand on the outside of that and it's misty and it's cloudy and it's foggy, we don't have any idea what's in there, and it's speculative the entire time. And so once we step into that, we know one way or the other, right? We either step into that and we we find that the red lights that were in the fog were headlights, not the eyeballs of a monster. Right. Or maybe we do find that there is something in there that we need to explore a little bit deeper, right? That we need to, you know, maybe it is a two-eyed monster that we get in there that we need to dig a little bit deeper into how it is that why we think it's a two-headed monster or or whatever it is. But taking that step in there from that point, you can then make another decision about where it is that you want to go. And beautifully said, and and I think all around that it's you and it goes back to like the 1% better sort of thing every day, but you're making progress, you've made a decision, you've taken a step to move forward. And you've either taken a step to move forward to level up, right? To maybe you yeah, you stepped into there and you you you decided I need to explore something a little bit more or grow or learn or whatever it is, but you're still making progress. And and I know definitely for myself that it's this like it's almost like this self-fulfilling prophecy that when I step forward into something is and I've made it's interesting as I think through this in my head, like those sort of exact scenarios. It's like stepping in front of a room. Everybody out there, I don't know anything about it, it's super scary. But once you step into it, the the veil starts to drop, the mystery starts to fade away, and you've got the opportunity, you have new things to explore at those sort of times. And so I've definitely found for myself that the more often that I step into it, I can see that I've done it, you know, the the confidence that I feel. Like I know that I thought these things, but when I went out there and did it, it wasn't necessarily so bad. Right. What what does one more step after that look like?

SPEAKER_00: 50:45

Yeah. Wow, that was so well said. I mean, it really truly was. And that, you know, there are so many ideas embedded in what you said. Uh one of them is this idea of progress. You see, in the gap, if you have a general orientation of where you're going, let's say again about your retirement. You were, you know, I'll never forget a lady came up to me after a workshop, or actually during a break at a workshop that I was doing based on the gap on change and transition. And she she said, the reason I came here is because about six months ago, my husband came home from work and sat down. He said, I don't love you anymore. I don't even like you. And I'm leaving. And she said, she looked at me and she said, Kevin, he packed his stuff up and left that night, and it was over. And so I'm thinking she said, We've been married 33 years. And you know, so I'm I'm here trying to figure it all out. And so the idea was with her or with anybody in transition, and again, to your point that you've kind of said some things earlier on that that still involves all of this, is that this can be for a whole myriad of scenarios, from skill building to major life transitions, whatever the case might be, is that you get a general orientation of what you're where you're going, and then you start moving. You don't perfect that vision because you can't perfect it. You're you're you're married 33 years at your old world, you were dumped into the gap, and now somebody says, So what's your life about? You have you you probably can't even get the first word out, you see. So you you get a general orientation and then you start moving. And to your point, as you move through the gap, you have to imagine the foggy zone is not like this straight line, it's a fog. And when you go into it, it's it's you know, but as you move through it and get through it, by the way, to your point, the fog begins to thin out, it starts to lift, you start to see things. And and again, you you can't push these metaphors too hard, but to your point, you might get start to see the other end and go, oh gosh, I don't think that's where I want to go.

SPEAKER_01: 53:02

Okay, so that's a part of the process, it's part of the journey. Yeah, I mean, that's way more clear then than it was, you know, from the other side of the valley, sort of thing. Yeah, you got it. You got it. So often I feel that it's that like paralysis of, you know, and uh and that's kind of the beauty, I think, a lot of times within coaching of really reframing that kind of metaphor, right? Of like what it looks like to step into some of the thing, to step into the fog, to take that sort of first action.

SPEAKER_00: 53:39

That's right. That even comes down to potential. And I talk to uh a lot of my players, middle school players, especially if they're a little more mature and really trying to learn something, and that is that you know, when it when it comes to exploring potential, you have to move into the foggy zone. You you gotta get to a place where it's really uncomfortable, you know, like putting uh one of the players to play number one on the team. Even in middle school, at least in this area, some really high-end players around here. And even in middle school, if you're playing a number one player, you're probably playing somebody who's on other teams who've been maybe been playing five, six, ten years because they started when they were very young. And so now suddenly you have this, you know, it's a funny thing that, and I've never seen this fail, that especially in middle school, all of these kids they want to be the number one player. You and you can see it, you know, they uh you know, they're they're aspiring to get there. And then I put them in number one and they're like, oh crap, what did I oh Lord? I don't want it so much. Get spanked. Yes. And so I say, this is part of exploring your potential, though. You won't know this until you push yourself. And that's what I'm here to do as a coach, is to push you a little bit. You're you I might even say something like this to a kid. Depends on the kid. Listen, you're probably not in a place to be number one. But and the other person who's number two is probably a little bit better than you, but they're an emotional wreck. Now, I wouldn't say this to the kid, but that my point is that you know they lose a point and they fall apart. You've got a little more grit, but it's gonna be painful because you're playing some people that are very much better than you are, you see. So you have to, and again, talking about all of these things, managing your mind, going into the thing saying, listen, this person is number one in the county. I'm gonna probably get spanked, but I'm gonna go out there and just see what I'm capable of doing. You see, that's a different mentality. Oh, it's just yeah, you're right, the growth mindset. I'm gonna see what's happening.

SPEAKER_01: 55:48

Well, as kind of an example, so my I have two boys, they're seven and eleven. And my oldest recently got invited to they call it the tough guy tournament in wrestling. Oh interesting. Oh, and uh it's where I think for the state or the region where they invite all the tough guys. Oh my, and he kind of slid into it, right? And there was a lot leading up to this of anxiety and worries like, dude, I have yeah, I have no business being at the tough guy tournament, right? And he uh it was it's an interesting experience with him, but it was challenging for him, right? There was a lot of really tough kids there, and so we he didn't do as well as he'd hoped, you know, or as maybe as well as he had expected, or as well as he'd, you know, but when he got there, it that was part of you know the discussions that we had was like, hey man, last year you didn't get invited to Tough Guy, right? Yeah, the and the coaches have to your coach has to invite you and put your name in the hat in order to be invited to Tough Guy. Last day, last year we didn't get invited to Tough Guy. This year you got invited. We have no idea what it's like, right? There was there was 690 kids registered. Oh, yeah, 26 man bracket. It was it was unreal. So, but uh we had no idea. Yeah, now we've been here, we know the landscape, we know what we need to train for, we know what we didn't do, or you know, we we know where what we can improve on, things that we can do differently, right? And and that's the you know, we didn't necessarily know what to train for going in, and so all of these sort of things, just continuing that metaphor, right? Okay, hey, next year, you know, and and this has been the discussion uh post it. Hey, we've got an idea of what it looks like, we know what we didn't do so well on, but next year, when we get invited again, or when we run into that situation or that scenario again, this is now we have more information, right? And that's kind of the same thing of like stepping into the fog and things clearing, and we have more information now, but it takes that willingness to take that first step to sign up to the tournament. And all of these are, you know, as you talk about transition, I think it's so beautiful because you know, it can be a wrestling tournament, it can be a career change, it can be, you know, the ending or beginning of a relationship, but it's just whatever, yeah. Whatever that transition is from somebody making a decision, you know, of where it is that you're at right now and where it is that you want to be. I want to be. And and what is it that's holding you back from taking that first step?

SPEAKER_00: 58:45

It's a beautiful thing, you know. Wow, you just laid it out there so beautifully. And and you're also you just that last point that you just made, what's holding you back? So there's a there's a model, long time model in in coaching that you probably familiar with. We call it Grow. And I use it, I use it as a model even in my thinking, you just like thinking through a problem of some sort. So for your audience, GROW, it's a meta it's uh uh acronym for the G is goal, the R is reality, the A is wait. No, no, G A. No, goal, right? Grow, no, GROW, uh yeah. So gosh, I haven't really thought through the uh I just use it with without even thinking about it anymore. But yeah, so so G is goal, R is reality, O is options or obstacles, which is the poor what I was gonna say, and then W is the way forward. So it's this, it's one of the most amazing models. Actually was developed many years ago in in England by I for can't think of his name right now, but but it's it's it's a it's a a pro. Process that we use in coaching to do exactly what you just said. And again, I don't follow it completely, like saying, okay, let's say if you're a new new coaching client, I don't just start off by saying, okay, so let's talk about your goal. You know, we may we may talk about your R, your reality. So for instance, you may have reached out to me for some coaching, and our first meeting is I may just ask, so tell me, you know, why is it that you believe you want some coaching? Okay, so I'm inviting you to the R, to the reality. So if you think about the the G, the goal is the future state. The R is the current state. So I may just ask you, so tell me how can I help you? And then you say, Well, listen, I've been thinking about changing my career and yada yada. So now you're telling me your current state. We may stay there for a while, two or three sessions, trying to completely understand what your current state is. Then I'll say, okay, I think I understand what your current situation is. Let's talk about where you want to be. Okay, now we're getting into the goal and we're trying to crystallize that. And then to your point, which this is, you know, the the uh the the O uh the O part is mostly for options, developing options to get from the R to the G or the current state to the future state, but I've incorporated the obstacles into it. And so that's one of the questions. Okay, so I understand where you're trying to get to. We've kind of gotten pretty clear about that. We understand what your current state is, and therefore the gap between the two. Now let's talk about options, but let's also talk about obstacles. Why haven't you gotten there yet? And then we start to explore these ideas. And I think this is so critical for young men, young teenagers, whatever the case might be, to start to understand this process of doing exactly what you said, understand where you're going, understand where you're at now, and therefore the uh the gap between two those two things. And you talk about options, but you also talk about what's holding you back. And then you go take it on. You go, you you attack that problem, and that's where you begin to, as you said, the fog starts to lift. You start to understand. So today you understand much more than you did yesterday. You're moving towards this goal here. The goal is to be is excellence, if you want to, we'll just use that vague term, or to be, let's say, the number one wrestler in the state. Let's say that's the big goal, the vision. Okay, so last year you were here. Your goal was you know, one of your milestones was to get here. You got here, now you know what it's really going to take. So now you you you start to think about the obstacles that are still in front of you, the options that you have to close that gap between where you're at and where you want to go. That grow model is one of the simplest and most profound models that I've personally come across in my life of coaching.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:08

Yeah, well, I think to your point that I think that a lot of guys uh sometimes think, you know, whether it's guys or kids, men, women, what whatever it is, that that that journey, right? If we're not going from you know, fifth place to fourth place to third place on our road to first place, that we're we're not making progress. But you know, both for myself and I feel like people that I've worked with, that often that journey it's all over the place, right? That's true. You know, it is going back to like, you know, dig back into a little bit deeper about how I get, you know, if it's wrestling, for instance, right? Like, let's go back to the fundamentals and your techniques and figuring out what that is. And so part of that journey, it's almost like that path splits at that point, and that part of that journey, you're still moving forward along the overall timeline of what you're doing, but it may look like you're going back and revisiting something, but in reality, you're you were gonna have to make that change, anyways. That's right. But I think often that people can get really hung up on that, that like, I don't have time to go back and do this, that you know, you can't teach an old dog new tricks, that ship has sailed, or whatever it might be. But in order for you to make it to that next level, achieve the next goal or whatever that is, that yeah, we we have to address those those obstacles.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:38

You know, taking exits on the journey. If you again think about the metaphor of a road or you're on a highway going somewhere, and the ultimate destination is up here. Well, you get to a point in your career or your job or whatever the case might be, and you realize you gotta you gotta exit here because there's something that you have to learn and you have to go the hard way. You end up back on the pathway, on the highway, but you have to take that exit and do whatever it is. I mean, you know, again, don't want to get too slippery with with these metaphors, but you have to take that exit, that detour, and do what you need to do that will put you back on that highway with more force. Because sometimes I listen, uh even back to the the tennis thing. I learned this fairly early on in my tennis coaching career that that the temperament of the kid is so important, especially at the age that they might be like a sixth grader. I've had a number of sixth graders who were just clearly better than the other players on the team, seventh and eighth graders, and 100% should have been number one, but but in getting to know them and speaking with their parents, we collectively decided this decided, you know, this this would be a career-ending move to put them as number one, and they get crushed the entire season, you see. Rather, let's let's move them back down a little bit, let them get some confidence, let them get some match play and understand it, and then they'll be more prepared. Again, they could have easily been in the number one spot, you see, but you're you're considering other things in the long term, uh, you know, regarding their vision, I guess you could say, or their goal.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:23

Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good. I I love that metaphor of like getting off the freeway, but getting back on with yeah, more equipped, more equipped. Love that. Well, hey, Kevin, as we start to wrap up here, where can the men listening go to learn more about you, your book, the work that you do, the work that you've done?

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:45

Yeah. Well, I appreciate that, Corey. You know, cumadine.com is my website, so that's H-U-M-D-Y-N, as in human dynamics, humodyne.com. You know, that's my website, but honestly, probably the easiest place to catch me is on social media. I'm on LinkedIn quite a bit, so just look for Kevin McNulty or Kevin McNulty Speaks, Facebook, Instagram. I probably spend my LinkedIn, if you will. It'd be a good place to connect with me. And my book, it's called The Gap Between Two Worlds. It's on Amazon. And and it's the the gap is just about, you know, it's it's it's it's about taking what can be a very deep, dark, difficult, scary place, and turning that into a positive, you know, personal growth experience. It's the idea that we're talking about here is, you know, you're you you lost your you you lost a child, you see. Which I can't think of a harder transition to make than that. And and so you're you're trying to figure out, you know, how to exit that old world and create what might seem an impossible new world. So it's just all about that transition and trying to come out the other end in a better place, really.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:04

Fascinating. Fascinating. So much to take away from that. Well, hey, thanks again, Kevin. I appreciate you coming on the show, and we'll talk again soon, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:14

I appreciate it, Corey, very much being on here. I enjoyed it, and you're a great host.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:19

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